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Yorkshire Barry

Pocher beginner building a Roll Royce

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Posted (edited)

Couldn’t wait to get it on its wheels.

 

42-E75730-7361-40-DE-8117-7-B53-B71-B9-A

 

Most of the hard graft has been done on the chassis but I have it in mind to do a lot of enhancement and detail work, the really pleasurable bit of the job. In this view I am offended by the steering drag link being too long.

Edited by Yorkshire Barry

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Just to get a first look at the body I stuck it together with tape. Nothing is yet bolted or stuck and will not be for some time I guess.

i have read codgers comments about body height but I think my issues are different, we are on different bodies.

 

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I was surprised that the bonnet length fitted, I assumed I would be trimming that to fit. (English to American translation “hood” I think)

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Yorkshire Barry said:

i have read codgers comments about body height but I think my issues are different, we are on different bodies.

 

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I was surprised that the bonnet length fitted, I assumed I would be trimming that to fit. (English to American translation “hood” I think)

 

 

Everything I told you applies to your Ambassador and my Sedanca. The body will come down .250"+to the chassis by removing the firewall spacers and changing the spring arches will further that. See how the hood line droops at grille shell? Originals were dead level. And if you do alter the body height, modify the 4 hood panels afterwards, not before. The louvers will be in a completely different place.

Here's a before / after view:

Here the spacer is still under the firewall (see the dark gap?) and the radiator brace is tilted down. There will be a large gap from the body cowl to the firewall top:

633-pasted-Graphic.png

The result after all the work shows level radiator brace and the body flush atop the firewall:

804-pasted-Graphic.png

This is what you wind up with; perfect, level louvers after reworking the side panels and adjusting hood length. Note the tire space in the front fender. How it's done is all available in my thread. Hint: for references, don't look at other Pochers (except Cox models); study Gurney and Barker originals:

910-pasted-Graphic.png

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Bearing in mind the body panels are only thrown on I need yo look into it further. I can see the logic in dropping the firewall and levelling the bonnet, even with my rough taping that is apparent. I’m not so convinced on dropping the rear springs on mine although it’s easy to do. I have had a level on the chassis and it is spot on. Side to side ride heights are all equal. I am concerned that dropping the rear will look like a duck’s bottom! 
main thing is to carefully position the panels to weigh it up properly.

my posts up to this point have been catching up to present day, I have actually been building since a January and now that the weather has improved and the garden is sprouting I think my posts will slow down now.

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53 minutes ago, Yorkshire Barry said:

Bearing in mind the body panels are only thrown on I need yo look into it further. I can see the logic in dropping the firewall and levelling the bonnet, even with my rough taping that is apparent. I’m not so convinced on dropping the rear springs on mine although it’s easy to do. I have had a level on the chassis and it is spot on. Side to side ride heights are all equal. I am concerned that dropping the rear will look like a duck’s bottom! 

 

Lowering the springs also applies to the fronts equally; I should have made that apparent. Good that it's all level and square but putting the fenders in place shows you that it's too high. See Koo's blue car above.

I have 1 pound steel weights I use alone or together to load the chassis while testing. Seen here propping up chassis to square it:

3-pasted-Graphic.png

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91-D74-E85-B1-FB-4308-AFAE-B1-B75249-C61
 

This is the second “sticking”. Firewall has been dropped, rear springs lowered, floor cutout over chassis cross member.

i was taking the floor in and out so often I removed the pedals and hand levers, will put those back later.

The radiator needs raising slightly because the front apron is not fitting properly. The bonnet sides (sorry hood) have not been trimmed, I have just laid them on so that I know they are big enough.

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This shows why the radiator needs raising.  I am concerned that the starting handle shaft might not line up needing a bit of fettling.

When the body is lined up to my satisfaction it is not clear how it is intended to be bolted together, will need to engage brain.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Yorkshire Barry said:

 

When the body is lined up to my satisfaction it is not clear how it is intended to be bolted together, will need to engage brain.

 

That's fine but I urge you to engage my thread for these steps also. What and how is clearly delineated.

I'm very glad you're trying advanced techniques Barry, but you're only part way there.

First, obviously the front needs to come down too to match the rear height and get a level body. You don't say how you lowered the rear springs - either you removed leaves or de-arched them. The front will need similar work but not necessarily the same. The floor will need major reworking; I ground down crossmembers, cut slots, made a taller rear step in it and fashioned new bolt-on threaded fasteners to make it frequently removable. It's all on view in the thread. When you get body finalized, the body attachment hole for body to frame at lower front corner will no longer line up. I made a new, lower, bracket from brass, bolted that to frame then drilled and tapped hole through body and into brass bracket for 0-80 bolt.  The old hole in the body will naturally need filler. If you'd like, a 5mm trim of the body lower edge restores good proportions in the side view.

DO NOT yet make radiator changes; it is higher because you lowered the body. Just be sure it is perpendicular to the frame and bolt upright. Nor cut/modify the hood panels for the same reason. That was among the last steps in my build. Establish body and ride height to satisfaction THEN get hoods and rad into final configurations.

You can see already that the whole car's looking immeasurably better than the stock build.

Edited by Codger

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Thanks codger for the helpful,comments, I have read your post but I need to work at it step by step to put it in context. I plan to reset the spring leaves when I finalise the height needed, I have pulled the body down with a loop of cord at the rear and will pull the front down the same way. Not sure why you advise against lifting the rad, I was only planning around 2mm. I certainly won’t be cutting the bonnet sides for some time, I keep in mind what my grandad said, always keep your wood as long as you can as long as you can. Why did you make a taller rear step, was that to get the floor lower onto the chassis?

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25 minutes ago, Yorkshire Barry said:

 I plan to reset the spring leaves when I finalise the height needed, I have pulled the body down with a loop of cord at the rear and will pull the front down the same way. Not sure why you advise against lifting the rad, I was only planning around 2mm.  Why did you make a taller rear step, was that to get the floor lower onto the chassis?

Pulling with cords will not get it done - working with the springs will. Experiment by removing leaves and mocking-up. Meaning use the actual parts. Loosen the shock attachment links slightly and the hanger bolts to allow them to relax. If removing leaves doesn't appreciably lower the body, de-arch them. After each change, re-assemble. That's why you want re-usable fasteners.

All the changes affect something else - getting the floor flush to the frame needs a taller step at the frame kick-up. I also installed gussets at the cut of the step for strength to keep the floor rigid. The floor attaches to the body sides and I show a whole section on changing that to a secure re-usable fastening system. That will locate the angle (you want level) of the body when it rests on the firewall. That's why I say wait with the rad placement until the body sits in final position exactly where you want it.

Remember you're working two different things; the body's location on the chassis and the body's location in relation to the ground. The lower floor changes the former - the suspension changes alter the latter.

Sorry to sound a broken record but this is all easily seen in my thread rather than reading me babbling on about it. I know it takes time to read and wade through 1000 pictures but that's why it's pinned up there. You are also free to strike out on your own in new directions and methods.

Questions always welcomed.

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Still messing about with tape but I am satisfied that I can get the body in a good position relative to the chassis in the fore and aft dimension , starting from the radiator the bonnet length positions the body fore and aft and the rear of the body reaches the trunk. Separately I have attached the floor to the chassis in a similar fashion to codgers 'i.e spacers at the front, slot to clear the rear cross member and captive nuts to bolt the floor to the chassis.

I have found a issue with the height of the body on the floor which I have not found much about in all the online experiences but referring to one of Codger's pictures (hope you don't mind me copying it here)

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I am looking at similar fixings to attach the floor to the body, however if I had used the original fixings the kit provides (nowhere near strong enough of course) there would not be the gap between the floor and the body. . I am not sure whether this is in its final position and the next picture on the post does not clarify this. this. If the joint is made up in the above position with spacers clamped between the two parts then the body is effectively lowered from the Pocher stock position. If I locate it as above the fit around the door sills is much better and the body lowers nearer the firewall which has also been lowered. If I bolt my floor to body at the height in the above picture are there other pitfalls down the road that I have yet to find?

I am finding the location of the body, chassis and floor the area demanding the most attention so it is not being rushed!

Barry

 

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On 5/31/2020 at 11:51 PM, Codger said:

I know it takes time to read and wade through 1000 pictures but that's why it's pinned up there.


Took me about a month to go through all pages and posts of the original thread. The fact that I did, while having no plans to build this Pocher model, says it all. I learned a lot going through it. Even if you used 5% of its knowhow it’d be worthwhile. Remember, it’s there and free to behold. Other sites would charge you $ for similar or lesser info.


That being said, you’ve made a decent start at this equally complex and rewarding kit.

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Barry I see the reason for your questions; you have attempted to work from my early part of the build and I apologize for the confusion. Reading through the whole of it would have revealed it was a work in process and as I consulted Cox on the more advanced techniques I had to un-do the earlier basic construction. This took 38 months and near 1000 photos to get the end result. You are showing  photo #291 here but what you're after came later. I will ID each photo by number so you will have an idea where to look in the thread. What you're after took place four years ago and my text in the thread will be far more helpful than what I can remember here - but I'll try.

I have downloaded from my thread then marked-up the photos that explain the lowering best. Takes a long time. I don't know what other builds you have followed but I am not aware of this work having been done outside of Cox and myself.

This will be long-winded but I hope solve your questions.

Here in photo # 287 (just before the attachment studs you show) is a block I made to support the floor at the forward edge - Pocher doesn't have any. This is BEFORE lowering the floor - at stock Pocher height. That block is the same height that the floor will come down to sit flat on the frame when we finish modifying.  Just below that block is the Pocher attachment point for the lower front corner of he body AT STOCK HEIGHT. Note it is already stripped out from several trial fits.

287.png

Here is photo #305, a sort of 'cutaway' view of where all the stock elements put the body. The door, body lower and roof heights are stock Pocher - not yet cut down. Note how the floor is raised above the whole frame. The spacer is still under the firewall causing the radiator brace to be higher at the rear than at the grille. Also raising the cowl if it were on. The step in the floor at the rear seat is stock and very low. The bottom of the floor is above the rear spring shackle - in short, everything is raised from where we want it to be.

305.png

Here in #306 we see the body lower edge just barely covers the frame rail. Note the light colored filler with the hole in it at the forward lower edge of the body. It's the body attachment point at the cowl and very important but its mounting hole is useless because it's stripped as you saw above. And we're going to change it by .250" anyway:

306.png

Here's the main mods in photo #372. The crossmembers are ground down below the frame side rail height. The floor has slots cut in it for clearance anyway. A new taller step has been made of .060" styrene because the floor is now touching the frame and the frame rails kick up under the seat. Note the body attachment studs hanging down through the floor sides.

372.png

Here in #376, looking forward a new white floor of .030" covers all the slots of the previous shot and is what the rug will attach to. The firewall is flat on the frame as is the floor. The step at rear is just visible and a slot was cut in the rear floor section to ensure a level floor. The handbrake mechanism now protrudes above the floor.

376.png

Here in #394, is a view before the body cowl is permanently attached to the body sides. I made those adjustable truss rods to hold the sides in correct location but you have a good view of the new floor and higher step unit.

394.png

#415 is a new overall view. The car is tilted nose up because the work stands were not set to show the chassis level. The notable things are that the rear fender now has a very realistic gap above the tire. Compare to Koo's blue stock car seen earlier. The body lower edge is now well below the chassis rail and the front body attachment hole is off and below the frame. I kept stressing to leave the hood panels alone until all the geography is finalized for this obvious reason; the angular gaps at front, rear and bottom.

415.png

Photo #596 is a much better, inverted view of the finalized floor. Gussets have been added to strengthen the rear step. The 'clamps' are now 1/8" brass strips shaped to taper f to r with the body sides. They are much stronger than the earlier plywood ones. When the nuts are tightened they make the body attach to the chassis in a very sturdy manner. Later, the decorative wood flooring was attached:

596.png

You've really got to be motivated to do these extreme mods. Here is #598 to prove. When I decided that the appearance of a perfectly lowered and accurate Rolls was what I MUST have, all the hard finicky detail work I did before no longer mattered. You must make similar decisions if you want to go this far. My thought was that viewer's eyes will see the shape and proportion and never (except in build photos) see the RR logo on the bellhousing, the trans linkage or various covers on the gearbox (and the weathering I did on all those)  jammed hard under the floor boards. So I ground all that stuff off because it caused the floor to not sit flat on the frame. Gladly. So choose your priorities.

598.png

And lastly is #600. Here the frame is inverted showing the bottom. The clamps are loosely in place waiting to receive the body side edges. The big thing is the 90 degree bracket made of brass, epoxied and bolted to the frame rail to locate the lower front edge of the body in its new position BELOW the frame. Dramatic evidence of the new lower body. The arrow shows where the stock Pocher boss and hole was, now ground off and filled and painted German Gray of the frame. A 0-80 bolt and nut now go through the body and secure it to this bracket. It was very sweaty locating that hole blind but I'm glad I did it:

600.png

Again, my text, although tedious to wade through will explain it as the work actually happened and may be more helpful. I am even today, bowled over that Roy V who is not a Pocher classic aficionado but a highly advanced scratch builder, read every line of it and found some value there.

I hope you do too. / C

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Thanks for taking the time to reply. Yes you are right I read your posts up to the point that I was working, I did not study the build that I am not yet reaching therefore I did not see your later modifications. I have now read right through.

However like you I was not satisfied with my first set of adjustments, I wanted the body to be still lower on the frame, like you I am looking at side views of the real cars. I then worked slightly differently. My packing pieces at the front of the floor are lower than yours by about one tenth but as you found the body us still too high. Unlike you I have been lowering the body on the floor, not lowering the floor onto the frame. I am still looking at the consequences of thus, nothing is bolted, all clamped or sticky tape. The scuttle is now down onto the firewall so I cannot get any lower unless I modify the latter. I may now be low enough. One point I looked at was the effect on the door sills and they actually fit much better. I am still looking to see if there are any other complications I have introduced by doing this. I chuckled a bit when you said you had tension finding the hole in the forward body side mounting. As an apprentice in aircraft manufacture we often had to put a new skin on frames where the rivet holes existed, we used a device called a blind finder which i think is what you needed. Perhaps you know what I am talking about and there is some reason why you could not use it. In case you don’t know what I am talking about I will do a sketch and post it here later.

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It is now apparent that you come here with training and skills far in excess of building models. So suggestions of how I did things are merely suggestions. I never intended they be The Last Word on the subject and offered them only as a guide to motivated modelers. Your instincts and training will serve you well should you wish to build this with advanced methods. I just hoped to stress to all to simply be unafraid to alter a rare expensive kit.

Dave Cox kindly shared his overall principles of doing these things with me but quite often I had to find my own way too. We had a good channel of two-way feedback.

'Unlike you I have been lowering the body on the floor, not lowering the floor onto the frame.'

Since I no longer have the pieces in hand, I'm not sure how you can lower the body without lowering the floor. Since the flange on the body mates to the flange on the floor...Also, changing the relation of body to floor may 'compress' the seating area.

'The scuttle is now down onto the firewall so I cannot get any lower unless I modify the latter.'

This is good but - What is unclear here is if you lowered the firewall ONTO the chassis flush by removing Pocher's spacer mounts. Otherwise, the body is being elevated by the firewall's raised position.

All I can offer beyond my method is to work slowly and weigh the cause/effect of each of your changes on the other parts of the whole.

Thank you for the diagram of the great tool that exists for blind hole locations. Where were you in 2015 when I needed it? I would have a hairline like Elvis Presley now if you helped then....:rolleyes:

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Following your build has been extremely valuable to me as is the  DVD. I cannot imagine how anyone could build these cars from the instructions. Fortunately I had two friends who built Pochers, both sadly dead now so I knew that it would be a challenge and that nothing would fit. Getting the chassis built has been OK and I will be going back for a lot of enhancements. I think thus body alignment is the part of the build needing the most caution. I am trying to build the rest of the body in my mind to try and avoid unseen problems which could occur by getting the height more realistic.

as well as height I am being careful with the fore and aft alignment .

in answer to your previous the firewall is dropped down onto the chassis, I may also move it aft a bit as there is so much visible when the bonnet is opened which is not realistic. 
I note how long you are working on your model, as I am in my ninth decade I can’t afford to take that long !

Sorry I was not there for you when you needed a blind finder! Not rocket science!

 

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27 minutes ago, Yorkshire Barry said:

in answer to your previous the firewall is dropped down onto the chassis, I may also move it aft a bit as there is so much visible when the bonnet is opened which is not realistic. 

I note how long you are working on your model, as I am in my ninth decade I can’t afford to take that long !

Sorry I was not there for you when you needed a blind finder! Not rocket science!

 

You can move the firewall a bit but you will increase the gap between it and the engine rear surfaces and expose a lot of bellhousing. Also, mind the angle of the steering shaft that passes through it.

Bless you in your ninth decade! You may be the most senior member of this forum!

Everything I'm capable of is not rocket science...........:banghead:

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Progress seems a bit slow for two reasons, one is the fine weather. The other is that I have been taking a lot of time getting happy with the location of the body. As mentioned in other posts I found that the body needed moving aft. I was trying to work out the effects on the body inner panels but eventually decided that they some were going to be cut and fitted anyway, the inner panel forward of the door for instance. At the end of the day the body position works itself out, from the radiator along the bonnet panel and then the tub to butt up to the trunk. My wings are one piece front and rear so no trimming without cutting it up.

i have made bolted attachment between body sides and floor and will make bolted joints for the rear panel. I can’t fix anything finally of course until after paint. 
 

spacer.png

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Intricate phase of the build, checking the alignment of all the body components. I have introduced bolted construction wherever possible and with adjustment when things have to be repositioned from the Pocher fixings.

This shot shows the adjustable attachment between floor and body for example.

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The rear panel is bolted similar to  Codgers arrangement.

 

spacer.png 


The alignment of the wings requires a lot of trial and error. The Ambassador is one piece from front to rear, I don’t want to cut to modify. I have tried the fit against the chassis, some relieving necessary at the scuttle. Then checking the detail attachments of wing go body which will be bolted, not screwed.

 

spacer.png
 

Pity with these wings I cannot fit the body in assembled state, can’t get them over the firewall. I would have liked to be able to lift assembled body off the chassis but it won’t go.

I keep checking the bonnet fit and the top panels are fine.

 

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The side panels do not fit properly and I can’t see that I have done anything to cause this discrepancy. I have lowered the body but not enough to cause this bad fit. In this shot it us a bit high but that doesn’t explain the bad cut line at the rear. I can fix it but I thought the fit would be better from what I have read but I note Codger had a similar effect. Mine us better at the front edge.

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Having done all this fitting I have to do a lot of detail work. The rear of the floor needs modification. After much thought I have decided not to do further floor lowering as Codger has done. I want to preserve the option to display the chassis. My floor is lower than his first fit but he then lowered it further involving a lot of grinding away on the chassis and gearbox.The doors can now be cut out with a lot of trimming and cleaning up. I Then think I come to the point where I have to paint the body before assembling again. I don’t want to rework the panels after paint so a lot of care needed. There are mould marks in the door skins which need attention.

i haven’t decided on colour scheme yet but I have to make my choice. I am tempted by high gloss black, very sinister and contrasts the silver metal fittings. I quite like dark blue with light blue lining. Decision time!!

 

 

 H

Edited by Yorkshire Barry

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Barry I am glad you took to heart my advice about converting as much as possible to bolts and studs rather than screws. Very durable and easily removable and replaceable.

Very nice work especially to the refinement of my side body clamps to make them adjustable. It's fine that you do not want the body as low as mine but do mind lowering the suspension to the chassis by shimming or you will have a large fender to tire gap.

About the hood panels; again I say make no attempt to rectify any portions of them until the body and fender units are finalized. You can already see that the cowl / hood louvers are misaligned. You may have to let in or remove styrene sheet to certain edges to get them level - a job well-worth the effort to get the prototype look. And here's another judgement you must make. If you assemble the upper panels in stock form you will have to lift the entire unit off to display the engine. Installing a .032" music wire into the top hinge with a pivot at each end will allow you to open the halves in the prototype manner.

936-pasted-Graphic.png

 

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I certainly want the bonnet (sorry hood) to open properly.

i am however in deep thought about the end result. I have not finished with the chassis, I intend to go back and add a lot more detail. The only thing is that it will never be seen. I can’t see a way to make it possible to lift he body off after completion. 
I am pondering a display case with two transparent shelves, one above the other. I could then put the fully detailed chassis on the lower shelf and the fully trimmed and wired body on the top shelf, that way it would be possible to see all the detail. Maybe some bits of mirror as well.

i may throw the idea out as silly but it is still revolving in the brain at the moment. 
Barry

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6 hours ago, Yorkshire Barry said:

I certainly want the bonnet (sorry hood) to open properly.

i am however in deep thought about the end result. I have not finished with the chassis, I intend to go back and add a lot more detail. The only thing is that it will never be seen. I can’t see a way to make it possible to lift he body off after completion. 
I am pondering a display case with two transparent shelves, one above the other. I could then put the fully detailed chassis on the lower shelf and the fully trimmed and wired body on the top shelf, that way it would be possible to see all the detail. Maybe some bits of mirror as well.

i may throw the idea out as silly but it is still revolving in the brain at the moment. 
Barry

I briefly went through the same planning process you are considering now. But as a practical matter, I abandoned the idea. Practical because unless your car goes to a museum to be seen by hundreds of people, there is little satisfaction to be gained by all the effort. I highly recommend you forget making the body removable - it becomes a heavy, awkward thing and handling will always cause damage - from fingerprints to broken parts. I am really comfortable that my car sits under glass, safe from atmosphere and damage. I occasionally don gloves, remove the case and reposition hood or doors open or closed and re-cover immediately. I am mystified by those that feel the need to turn lights on/off, press levers, controls and switches of such delicate construction and poor leverages. The brakes may be fun to construct but are a fool's errand to operate. I just enjoy that it is a thing of beauty to see. Remember, if it were real, no one is able to invert it to see how pretty the bottom is. My Cobra is as pretty below as above but I enjoyed that only when working on it or photographing it.

I settled on photography as the very best solution for enjoying and sharing the work put into the detailing. Photo the major assemblies before they are concealed by body and other components. Keep digital files and folders. My car and all its detailed areas have been seen by hundreds of people, here, in publications and on the web - far more than anyone standing next to it in my dining room. It is even (I hope) proving useful as a tool to help builders like you.

 

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Barry,

I have the same train of thought going on regarding my Pocher F40. It would be a shame to display the car with opened doors and chassis as it compromises the raw yet refined lines of the F40. On the other hand NOT displaying all the oily bits with an exceptionally transkit thrown at them would be also a shame. Along these lines I already thought of using the transkit and Pocher engine parts to do all the structural parts with all the technical bits to the highest level I possibly can, and doing a simple scratched subframe for the complete hull with interiour but without unseeable drivetrain and motor detail at all.

 

I love the idea of showing these side by side. The Car itself draws immediate attention a simple display of oily bits would never do. But once you have the attention those overdetailed parts make for a stunning display piece. At least in my mind.

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On 6/30/2020 at 4:17 AM, Yorkshire Barry said:

I certainly want the bonnet (sorry hood) to open properly.

 

Barry, to this end, I just posted a detailed explanation in my pinned thread of how I did this and I hope it benefits you.

C

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