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Yorkshire Barry

Pocher beginner building a Roll Royce

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I have known about Pocher models for about 25 years, a good friend built a Rolls Royce chassis but never covered it up with a body. A work colleague built three Pocher models, he was an ace modeller. Sadly both of these friends have passed on but having got a little time on my hands I decided it was my Pocher time. I searched on the internet and bought a kit for the K75 Rolls Royce which arrived from Holland, it was in good condition but the cylinder head and rocker cover were missing. The seller quickly sent me those.

i knew from reputation that the kits are not easy, I knew nothing would fit and a lot of patience would be required. I can understand why many kits are part built but I don’t give up easily. I am not a modeller, a 1/48 scale aircraft is my only previous achievement t I am an engineer and making things is no problem (my last major project was a full size flight simulator). 
I bought the DVD, thank goodness as the instruction manual is useless. I have been following the stories in this forum and particularly I admire the work and communication of “codger”.  I have snapped images on my phone and will post my story as it has progressed.

 I started with the engine, no problems building up the crankshaft but the pistons would not fit into the bores which were undersize and not round. I used an expanding reamer and everything then went together fine and the pistons move up and down smoothly. Why do we fit this stuff when it will never be seen when the model is built? My answer is that I know they are there and working even if nobody else does. I will now try and work out how to post pictures.

 

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2 hours ago, Yorkshire Barry said:

If I try the "Insert image from URL button this doesn't work, can anyone give me a clue?

Barry,Sorry no Goog experience.  I use postimg.cc; it is free and very simple.

First open a Brit screen and have both open. Once you register, select an 'upload' button, choose pix from your files and upload to a 'gallery' you choose. To post, select your photo, click 'share' and select the second choice - 'direct link' which automatically copies the url. You then paste this directly in your Brit post. Brit will post either the url or the actual photo. I have over 1000 photos in my Rolls build thread this way. / C

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Thanks for the advice on posting pictures, I think I am getting the hang of it.

Next challenge was fitting the timing gears. The geometry of the pivots is wrong and there are a few different ways of getting over this, some builders recut they gears but I chose to enlarge the hole in one gear, it can just be seen in the pictures. Whilst this enabled the gears to mesh they did not run smoothly and kept jamming up. I worked out that this was because the gear with the enlarged hub was not running true. I got over this by setting a thrust washer  onto the case to keep the gear running true. After this the gears all ran smoothly and the generator shaft turns as it should.spacer.png

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The cylinder head was fairly straightforward to assemble. The rocker arms are all up as supplied and I put some down. This meant that the valve spring was too far compressed and tried to break things. I read in a post so where that a new spring should be made but I couldn’t understand why; I retempered the spring using a lighter and squashed it down. 
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Posted (edited)

I had a break from working on the engine and assembled the transmission. No major problems but in the image one can see the many dents in the mouldings and a lot of filler was used! spacer.png

Edited by Yorkshire Barry

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You, being an engineer, explains your penchant for getting all the hidden bits to function correctly. I applaud your hands-on experience and determination.

The reality of most Pochers is that all the fit, quality, leverages and geometries of functioning parts (brake linkages, shoes, crank, gears, pistons, steering) is rubbish - in design and part quality.

I recognized that early on in my build. And did virtually none of that; only a f/r crank journal, and none of the following - pistons, valvetrain, timing gears, brakes and empty steering box.

In my view it was far more profitable to check, parts fits, chassis geometry and panel symmetry - which I found major issues with wherever I looked. These contribute directly to what the eye sees immediately upon seeing the complete model. Hidden parts do not. And I assure you, you will not want anyone turning your crank handle or pressing your brake pedal when the model is on display.

I also spent considerable time improving and creating new reusable  methods of attachment for the parts, many of which need be installed/removed for test fitting hundreds of times and greater structural integrity. The stock screw system is completely inadequate for even stock building and certainly not for advanced building.

My compete findings and cautions are presented in the first two pages of my thread. Koo's disc is helpful in the very beginning but goes nowhere near identifying or correcting the flaws.

Getting a level hood and louvers alone (a major Rolls trademark) is a huge visual  accomplishment and worth the considerable effort. As is centering the rear wheels in the fender openings.

It all starts with a good square chassis, so have fun with this project. There's plenty here for you to exercise your skills with. :rolleyes:

 

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3 hours ago, Yorkshire Barry said:

I couldn’t understand why; I retempered the spring using a lighter and squashed it down. 

Obviously an engineer! I like your approach to problem solving. Great start so far.

 

Codger is probably right about not messing with stuff you'll never ever want to be used. But being an engineer myself I do absolutely understand the desire to make things work.

Alongside his advice I'd like to add the following: Keep an eye on your painting and leave no bare kit plastic to be seen. The uninitiated won't notice wheels that sit wrong as long as both sides are symmetrical. But even my grandma spots a sloppy paintjob from a distance and knows it's wrong. The other way around - a superb paintjob blows your mind and distracts from rather big inacurracies.

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Posted (edited)

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Back to the engine I fitted the auxiliaries right and left. I made up a spark plug harness for the LH side which did not come with the kit. The manifolds needed fettling before they would ho together. I put a couple of extra pipes in and may add some more details later.

 

Edited by Yorkshire Barry

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I take the comments about the paint job and I know that there is a lot of careful work to do there. One thing I need to sort out us the type and source of paint, car colours are always “muddy” and I need to be careful not to use a bright colour. I also need to decide what type of paint I use, I can either airbrush or use aerosols. 
Barry

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If you do not plan on sticking with modelling, I'd suggest the spraycan route, it'll probably be cheaper. Airbrushing has an high initial cost and a learning curve. The possibilities are more than with cans, but not worth it for a model every now and then, in my book. Small parts and many effects are most efficiently painted with a hairy stick. Detailpainting as well.

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4 hours ago, Codger said:

You, being an engineer, explains your penchant for getting all the hidden bits to function correctly. I applaud your hands-on experience and determination.

The reality of most Pochers is that all the fit, quality, leverages and geometries of functioning parts (brake linkages, shoes, crank, gears, pistons, steering) is rubbish - in design and part quality.

Exactly right. The only Pocher kit I ever tried to build years ago — a Fiat of some kind or other — was junk. Screw threads did not match the holes they were allegedly tapped for. Bolt threads did not match the supplied nuts and/or were too short. Fit of moving parts was sloppy. Not being an engineer, I gave up on it in disgust and gave it away. I don't know if the lucky recipient ever finished it or not. Probably not.

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I didn’t find the fixings that bad, I wonder if your self tappers and bolts got mixed up. When fitting self tappers I put the right size of drill down and the either a tap or use the soldering iron trick. The self tappers would not fit nuts but I found the bolts were OK. The nuts are very small to handle and are magnetically attracted to the floor.

Barry

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23 minutes ago, Yorkshire Barry said:

........The nuts are very small to handle and are magnetically attracted to the floor.

....,,

Ha, you will find that modelling happens for a large part on your knees on the floor. 
Great that you are undertaking this build and take us along with you. 
 

Chas (Codger) is probably the most experienced RR builder lurking around on BM. 

He is a great source of information and very willing to help. Even moreso when you are building a Roller. 
 

Good luck with your build. I have booked a front row seat. 

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Looking forward to following along, so much experience on here for a pocher builder.

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Posted (edited)

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I have read through all the material on this site relevant to my build. We all have limits as to how far we go and I have decided not to get a lot of the aftermarket bits on sale. I am building it “out of the box” to start with and then I will go back and develop things. I anticipate a lot of time will be needed when the body is being built and I anticipate it will all be fitted and held together with tape until the fit is right.  I think the firewall will be modified and codger has remarked in another post that the chassis is too high but I will leave this until fine tuning as it is easy to fix.

Meanwhile the chassis is taking shape. I am not building as fast as I am posting, I have been building since a January and these pictures are playing catch up. Things will slow down soon.

 

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I have the DVD in sight when working things out..

 

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Edited by Yorkshire Barry
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Time to look at the rear axle. When I first looked at the linkages around the axle I was a bit bemused but eventually I worked out what is happening. A lot of detail work on the brakes and although they work they are not sufficiently robust to stand up to repeated use; the nuts clamping the levers to not exert sufficient force to stop them slipping. Having got it all lined up I will lock the mechanism when the chassis is complete.

None of this will be visible when the model is complete it I know it’s all there!

 

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Very neat work.

I will caution you that when all the shock links are assembled in the car, the chassis may have unequal ride heights on each side, left to right. Not noticed until the large body is mounted. The body will be tilted. I know you have it finished and on its wheels. Can't hurt to check it however with small level and the adjustment can be made by compression or extension of the components and  in the tension of the screws/bolts themselves. Also, shifting the springs fore or aft in their hangers can change the location of the wheels in their fender openings slightly. There's enough play in the driveshaft to allow that.

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Thanks for your warnings, now is a good time to check the ride heights, I’ll look at it tomorrow. Having read your posts and others I know about the issues of rear wheel position bit I was thinking that I need to get the body components in place but not fixed and them assess the adjustments necessary.

i am going through a reflection phase at the moment, not busting ahead. I am cleaning up the panels and working out how they go together. I will locate with tape initially to see what needs doing before cutting or fixing anything.

i am puzzled why Pocher produced the firewall as it is, I have read about cutting it back. Although mine is on the chassis it is not fixed.

i think the body will be the major challenge and the paint job and upholstery is where I plan the most detailed work - it will all be visible.

is there a medical condition known as Pocheritis caused by the incredulity of these cars. If I had not been forewarned about the challenges I would be a mental wreck by now.

Barry

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43 minutes ago, Yorkshire Barry said:

is there a medical condition known as Pocheritis caused by the incredulity of these cars. If I had not been forewarned about the challenges I would be a mental wreck by now.

Yes, there is. It is closely related to Stockholm syndrome. You are a mental wreck already, but too busy on your Pocher to realize it. Typical behaviour is buying more Pochers or diving into even more advanced builds. 😉

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Yorkshire Barry said:

i am going through a reflection phase at the moment, not busting ahead. I am cleaning up the panels and working out how they go together. I will locate with tape initially to see what needs doing before cutting or fixing anything.

i am puzzled why Pocher produced the firewall as it is, I have read about cutting it back. Although mine is on the chassis it is not fixed.

I applaud your taking time to ponder a plan and direction. I changed mine many times as I tried more and more advanced techniques. You may also. It may become less 'box stock' than you originally thought. I frequently urged builders to push their skills.

I found making reusable fasteners like 00-90, 0-80 and 2mm threaded rods with bolts greatly improved the ability to test fit and reassemble. The screws just won't live through that process.

The entire body cowl/ firewall is a manufacturing compromise design by Pocher and not a Rolls design replicated. Of much more visual impact is not the recessing of the firewall (which is still wrong because the cowl is not deep enough), but rather the lowering of the firewall to sit flush on the frame. This by removing the Pocher spacer channels that attach it. This has the following positive effects:

A. Lowers the rear pivot of the hood panels to make the hood line absolutely level - like the 1:1.

B. Better aligns the tops of the hood and cowl louvers - a Rolls trademark.

C. Eliminates the large gap between the firewall top and body cowl bottom where they meet.

D. Allows the whole body to sit at least .250" lower, flat onto the frame with further modifications like new floor, and step at rear seat area.

All of this is illustrated in detail in my thread, should you decide to commit to the additional work.

And yes, show quality paint, perfect upholstery and wood and quality chrome bits make a stunning visual impact in person.

Best advice; don't be in a hurry...

 

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D08-CEDA7-1623-4-CA1-A40-A-92-EAD824-EC2
 

Rear brakes finished, time to look at front axle.

 

spacer.pngThe brake actuation link is too long, I later shortened it. The steering is restrained by the twisting of this link, need for ball joints but I’m not going there at the moment. Fitting the brake links on the forward face of the axle is a challenge!

 

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Time to mount the axles on the chassis, no real problems here.

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The engine dropped into the chassis, I was expecting problems here but it went in easily without fouling something, big surprise!

 

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5-CCC0-EF2-DB66-4573-BE5-B-B4-D60688578-

Time to get stuck into the wheels (not literally). When looking at the metal outer rims I felt they needed work, they were not flat so I corrected that. I was also concerned that the rims were larger diameter than the plastic and felt they could make it more difficult to fit the tyres later as the metal edge could snag or worse cut the tyres. I milled all the metal rims flush with the plastic. I had to use tweezers to set the spokes and nipples, the latter had an irrepressible urge for freedom on the floor. I hoped there were enough spares as I went along.spacer.pngspacer.png

On the first layer the nipples clicked into the slots nicely and didn’t pop out, not the case with the second layer and I locked each one with a touch of the hot iron.spacer.png

 

Because of Araldite setting times between layers the build of each wheel was spread over a few days before I could look at five completed. The one on the bottom right needed rectification as the wheel rim slipped out of concentricity letting too much of the plastic rim showing. Fortunately I saw it before Aralditing which is why that one still has screws holding it together. At the end of the process I still had two spare nipples so that was success.

 

BB37-BD16-DAA1-4-B14-8-E14-67058-B8-C313
 

I’d read tales about how difficult it was to fit the tyres. I put them in a bowl of hot water for a few minutes, dried them with a hot blower and they went on very easily, I had the five fitted in no time. There was a bit of trimming to do where sometimes a bit of rubber slightly overlapped the rim, the effect can be seen in the above picture which I have partly trimmed. The little sliver of rubber lying on the mat was typical of what needed to be trimmed.

I’m very pleased with the wheels.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Yorkshire Barry said:

I’m very pleased with the wheels.

You should be. Tedious work but looking beautiful, so well worth it.

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