BF109 G-10 late war scheme?

[torqueofthedevil]

There are 

On 5/26/2020 at 12:52 PM, SafetyDad said:

These might be the pictures that Troy is referring to

There are 3 colour photos and full-page 4-view colour profiles of 5F+12 in the MMP book - two of the three have been reproduced above but the third hasn't. The uncertainty about which of RLM 82 and 83 was dark and light appears to have surfaced in the late 80s: Airfoil No 5 has the main article on the Last of the Luftwaffe with RLM 82 dark but a separate panel with an update stating RLM 82 light - this is perhaps the only publication which has both possibilities on consecutive pages! Not a criticism at all of Steve Sheflin, who created fascinating publications of wartime aircraft photos and profiles.

 

As an aside, I can also vouch for Montex masks - I have recently started using them (in 1:32) and am pleased with the results, partly because sprayed markings look good, and partly because the range of  marking options has now expanded significantly. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by torqueofthedevil
Missed a bit

[Graham Boak]

The panel cannot be flat or the supercharger wouldn't fit underneath.  There must be a bulge that is not visible in a simple side view.  

[Shorty84]

On 5/27/2020 at 8:02 PM, Denford said:

It seems hard to believe that now, 75 years after the end of hostilities, we seem to know more about the different variants of '109' than ever before!  William Green never really mastered the differences, and my one-time bible 'Last of the Eagles' is now no longer the definitive source.  What has best taken over from it?

The book Bf 109 Late versions - Camouflage & markings seem to be the last word on the late variants at the moment. Despite the title it also covers the differences between the various late versions of the Bf 109 (G & K).

 

Cheers

Markus

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, Shorty84 said:

The book Bf 109 Late versions - Camouflage & markings seem to be the last word on the late variants at the moment. Despite the title it also covers the differences between the various late versions of the Bf 109 (G & K).

It's not.

It has it's moments, but it one of those books where if you know the subject, you disagree with quite often.

 

Apparently THE book for 109's is this

http://www.caraktere.com/messerschmitt-bf-109-en.htm

 

I say apparently as it's not one I have. Yet.

I don't know of a one book for 109 colours. JaPo have done a few, the main 109's ones, are now very hard to find, and expensive when you do.

Quote

 

Messerschmitt Bf 109G-10/U4
Production & Operational Service

Aleš Janda, Tomáš Poruba

The second part of special serie “Luftwaffe over Czech territory 1945”. One of the main producers of Messerschmitt 109, Wiener Neustädter Flugzeugwerke and its branch plant Diana located in railway tunnels near Tišnov produced and delivered the famous fighter Bf 109 in G-10/U4 variant nearly until last days of WWII. The new title describes mentioned variant from technical point of view, it brings information about production system in Diana plant, about test flights in Protektorat area and about service by combat units including actions over Czech and Slovak territory. The text part is accompanied by photos and by color profiles of planes from ex-II./JG 51, II./JG 52, ex-I./JG 53, Hungarian 101.vadaszezred and Jagdstaffel ROA, 6 of them are described in detailed 4view drawings.

pdf's of this are about

 

Quote

Messerschmitt Bf 109K
camouflage & marking

Tomáš Poruba, Kees Mol

Detailed study into color system used on the last member of Bf 109 family is the first attempt to describe this item in systematic way. The text goes from general Bf 109 camouflage and marking principles, maps important changes in the middle of 1944 and evolves the most probable form of Bf 109K camouflage painting, all completed by quotations of important documents. A short chapter is dedicated to the influence of photo material at colors displays; a list of Bf 109Ks known is also included. The analytic style set up in this work is extended in project “Focke-Wulf Fw 190D, camouflage & markings”.

 

this is really hard to find.

 

 

[Rolls-Royce]

Sadly, JaPo seems to have fallen off the face of the Earth after the death of one of its principals. The website still exists, but any info is years old. I wish someone could step into the gap much as Eagle Editions did for Monogram several years ago, completing the long-awaited Ta152 title.

 

Seeing the JaPo FW190D third volume finally published would be amazing. And maybe reprints of some of their older titles, too. Sigh. I can dream, can't I?

Edited June 7, 2020 by Rolls-Royce
Add new data

[Troy Smith]

On 27/05/2020 at 19:02, Denford said:

It seems hard to believe that now, 75 years after the end of hostilities, we seem to know more about the different variants of '109' than ever before! 

Not really. No one cared for a long time.  And the sort of details now easily available were just not of general interest then, or now.

You and I may go "ooh, look, a K-4 photo I've not seen before" but for most folks, it's trainspotter anorak world.

 

On 27/05/2020 at 19:02, Denford said:

 

William Green never really mastered the differences, and my one-time bible 'Last of the Eagles' is now no longer the definitive source. 

Last of the Eagles was done in 1976!

There just were not the photos or data available then,  John Beaman made a really good effort,  but there was just a lot that was not known, like the differences between the 3 factories building them for a start, and how to identify those.

We are also talking about A LOT of aircraft.  Once Speer rationalised aircraft production,  mainly building fighters,  (German aircraft production peaked in Sep 44 with 4,000 built in a month)  you have a bewildering amount of vaguely similar aircraft being built, and then the whole system being destroyed,. including records and surviving airframes.

The big source of information has been photos, and a lot of those have surfaced first post 1989 and collapse of Communism, and then with the rise of ebay and selling off of private photo albums,  US soldiers private trophy photos have yielded an immense amount of information, as well as ebay.de for operational units.

 

 

On 27/05/2020 at 19:02, Denford said:

 

What has best taken over from it?

see my post above.

http://www.caraktere.com/messerschmitt-bf-109-en.htm

 

Not one I have, as yet! 

[Rolls-Royce]

Thank you for the book link, Troy. I just put that one on order.

[Shorty84]

Thanks Troy, I stand corrected. Seems I have to order one more book then

 

Cheers

Markus

[SafetyDad]

Have to wholeheartedly agree with @Troy Smith. 

 

The Fw190D is comprehensively covered, in both technical details and markings, by a combination of Eagle Editions and the 2 JaPo volumes. Yes, the 3rd volume would have been very interesting to see, but that seems unlikely now. The Dora also has the significant advantage of not being produced in a blizzard of differing subtypes and variants. Those that were produced are fairly universally agreed upon by differing authors.

 

Late variants of the Bf109 are a very different animal. A detailed understanding of technical differences and markings has to be pieced painstakingly together. As Troy says, prior resources have been at least partially overtaken by new evidence emerging, with two important examples being Jean-Claude Mermet's work on Bf109G-10 cowl shapes (those are his drawings in Post#24 above and he's one of the authors of the book Troy linked to) and recent understanding of the significance of the short II Gruppe bar used by JGr300 as an identifier. As here with Bf109G-10 'Yellow 13'.

 

 

Photo Credit: Marc-André Haldimann Flickr site
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 151 934 "Gelbe 13", JGr. 300, location unknown, Germany, May 1945. Source: eBay auction via TOCH Forum.

Courtesy of RudiS, TOCH Forum, 22 October 2018

 

That's an Erla-built G-10 and would make a very colourful model 

 

JaPo also added significantly to the sum of what is known -I'm fortunate to have been able to accrue most of the key titles from them and others (such as Airfoils, Broken Eagles, Monogram publications and Prien/Rodeike over the years). All have value, but a real problem can be the repetition of wrongly captioned pictures across different publications over the years. There is so much misinformation. Two examples are 'Black 4' with RVD bands found at Langenhalza, which has been pictured in many sources with Yellow and White RVD bands (ignoring the fact that JG2 wasn't issued with 109s at wars end - it flew the Fw190D-9), when these should be Blue and White JGr300 bands. And 'Green 7' mentioned above, found derelict in Prague-Kbely 1945. Where to start with this one - I've seen profiles from at least 4 different units for this! I'm most persuaded by Roy Sutherland's interpretation of another JGr300 airframe as part of Barracuda set 32145.

 

You really have to have your wits about you! I'm not trying to blind you with science - just encouraging a thoughtful, healthily sceptical approach to available information. Accruing the evidence for your colour choice can be very rewarding.

 

While some sources are hard to locate and expensive, not all are. A good look on Marc-André Haldimann's Flickr site is time well spent - it's exceptionally well organised and his captions are really detailed and informative. There is so much scope for marking choices here. 

 

HTH and doesn't confuse

 

SD

[Werdna]

This has turned into a fascinating thread...

 

Going back to the '5F+12' pics on the previous page - is there any particular reason why the undercarriage doors (apart from small sections at the top) would have been removed?  Leaving aside any questionable weight or aero benefit, all I can think of was that one might have been damaged and the other was removed to balance or trim the a/c.  The other possibility is that the a/c was supplied from the factory like that, which I'd be less convinced about, tbh.  Any thoughts?

[Parabat]

I would say that it is likely that the plane was operating from a more rudimentary airstrip than normal. Much the same as the many pictures of Fw190s in Russia, the lower portions were removed to avoid clogging up with mud. This could affect the operation of the gear twofold - failure to shut properly on take off, or clog up the well/mecahnism and fail to open when landing.

[FalkeEins]

On 5/25/2020 at 10:10 AM, Werdna said:

  The kit scheme is ok, but if there's anything else out there I'd be interested..

 

thanks

 

interesting thread. I've been casting around for a suitable subject for mine too. Just a small point since the OP mentioned it and at the risk of stating the obvious after the above - the kit 'scheme' based on the WNr. on the decal sheet (Erla G-10) is 'incorrect' for what's in the box. 

[torqueofthedevil]

On 6/8/2020 at 10:12 AM, SafetyDad said:

Have to wholeheartedly agree with @Troy Smith. 

 

The Fw190D is comprehensively covered, in both technical details and markings, by a combination of Eagle Editions and the 2 JaPo volumes. Yes, the 3rd volume would have been very interesting to see, but that seems unlikely now. The Dora also has the significant advantage of not being produced in a blizzard of differing subtypes and variants. Those that were produced are fairly universally agreed upon by differing authors.

 

Late variants of the Bf109 are a very different animal. A detailed understanding of technical differences and markings has to be pieced painstakingly together. As Troy says, prior resources have been at least partially overtaken by new evidence emerging, with two important examples being Jean-Claude Mermet's work on Bf109G-10 cowl shapes (those are his drawings in Post#24 above and he's one of the authors of the book Troy linked to) and recent understanding of the significance of the short II Gruppe bar used by JGr300 as an identifier. As here with Bf109G-10 'Yellow 13'.

 

 

Photo Credit: Marc-André Haldimann Flickr site
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 151 934 "Gelbe 13", JGr. 300, location unknown, Germany, May 1945. Source: eBay auction via TOCH Forum.

Courtesy of RudiS, TOCH Forum, 22 October 2018

 

That's an Erla-built G-10 and would make a very colourful model 

 

JaPo also added significantly to the sum of what is known -I'm fortunate to have been able to accrue most of the key titles from them and others (such as Airfoils, Broken Eagles, Monogram publications and Prien/Rodeike over the years). All have value, but a real problem can be the repetition of wrongly captioned pictures across different publications over the years. There is so much misinformation. Two examples are 'Black 4' with RVD bands found at Langenhalza, which has been pictured in many sources with Yellow and White RVD bands (ignoring the fact that JG2 wasn't issued with 109s at wars end - it flew the Fw190D-9), when these should be Blue and White JGr300 bands. And 'Green 7' mentioned above, found derelict in Prague-Kbely 1945. Where to start with this one - I've seen profiles from at least 4 different units for this! I'm most persuaded by Roy Sutherland's interpretation of another JGr300 airframe as part of Barracuda set 32145.

 

You really have to have your wits about you! I'm not trying to blind you with science - just encouraging a thoughtful, healthily sceptical approach to available information. Accruing the evidence for your colour choice can be very rewarding.

 

While some sources are hard to locate and expensive, not all are. A good look on Marc-André Haldimann's Flickr site is time well spent - it's exceptionally well organised and his captions are really detailed and informative. There is so much scope for marking choices here. 

 

HTH and doesn't confuse

 

SD

Thank you for this - very interesting. What colour is the bar on Yellow 13? I can see why people have assumed that the RVD bands are yellow - to me they appear to be an identical hue to the numbers! Whereas the bar is clearly darker 

[SafetyDad]

 

10 hours ago, torqueofthedevil said:

Thank you for this - very interesting. What colour is the bar on Yellow 13? I can see why people have assumed that the RVD bands are yellow - to me they appear to be an identical hue to the numbers! Whereas the bar is clearly darker 

You're welcome . The bar is black. Notice the distinctive shape, where it only touches the bands on each side of the centre. 

 

Yep, in this case the RVD bands neatly highlight the hazards of attempting to determine colours from black and white prints. I think that I can determine a slight difference in tone between number and bands but is that because I know they are different colours? Probably.

 

If you like the scheme, there are more pictures here: https://www.jg300.de/unbekannte-bf-109g-10-typ-erla-blaue-13.html

 

Notice this author feels the number is Blue, although acknowledges that others feel it is Yellow. He also links to Marc-André's site.

 

This set of pictures also supports @Troy Smith in his earlier comment about sources of new information about the Bf109 in that these appear to be 'trophy pictures' presumably from the private photo album of a US soldier. The troops standing on the wing are wearing US uniforms.

 

The more I look at these pictures, the more I like this scheme for a future model. Paint is 74/75/76. The pictures show the complete airframe (apart from the starboard side), wing camo is visible (a big bonus), you can just determine the spiral spinner, and all the markings, including the Wk. Nr., are clearly shown. Undersides could well be partially natural metal (see the information on Ander's Hjortsberg's blog below, linking Wk Nr to camo colours).  And I don't think this is available on any decal sheet - yet!

 

Check out Anders Hjortsberg's blog and his excellent notes on the detailed instructions for the Barracuda decals sheets for Erla Bf109G-10s for a more in-depth discussion of colours and markings, especially those of JGr 300.  http://theprofilepaintshop.blogspot.com/search/label/Barracudacals

 

HTH

 

SD

 

 

[FalkeEins]

 

..technically I'm not s'posed to do this ..but there's more text and pix here (from one of the JG 300 book team..)

 

https://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2013/11/barracudacals-erla-built-bf-109s-timo.html

 

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2012/08/last-sorties-of-jg-300-april-1945.html

[torqueofthedevil]

15 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

 

You're welcome . The bar is black. Notice the distinctive shape, where it only touches the bands on each side of the centre. 

 

Yep, in this case the RVD bands neatly highlight the hazards of attempting to determine colours from black and white prints. I think that I can determine a slight difference in tone between number and bands but is that because I know they are different colours? Probably.

 

If you like the scheme, there are more pictures here: https://www.jg300.de/unbekannte-bf-109g-10-typ-erla-blaue-13.html

 

Notice this author feels the number is Blue, although acknowledges that others feel it is Yellow. He also links to Marc-André's site.

 

This set of pictures also supports @Troy Smith in his earlier comment about sources of new information about the Bf109 in that these appear to be 'trophy pictures' presumably from the private photo album of a US soldier. The troops standing on the wing are wearing US uniforms.

 

The more I look at these pictures, the more I like this scheme for a future model. Paint is 74/75/76. The pictures show the complete airframe (apart from the starboard side), wing camo is visible (a big bonus), you can just determine the spiral spinner, and all the markings, including the Wk. Nr., are clearly shown. Undersides could well be partially natural metal (see the information on Ander's Hjortsberg's blog below, linking Wk Nr to camo colours).  And I don't think this is available on any decal sheet - yet!

 

Check out Anders Hjortsberg's blog and his excellent notes on the detailed instructions for the Barracuda decals sheets for Erla Bf109G-10s for a more in-depth discussion of colours and markings, especially those of JGr 300.  http://theprofilepaintshop.blogspot.com/search/label/Barracudacals

 

HTH

 

SD

 

 

Once again my thanks, I will enjoy the links in full when I have more time. Looking at Yellow 13, I'm amazed that the bar is black, when it looks so different to the rest of the visible black paint. The whole subject is a minefield! 

11 hours ago, FalkeEins said:

 

..technically I'm not s'posed to do this ..

...but I'm glad you did! 

[Werdna]

7 minutes ago, torqueofthedevil said:

.but I'm glad you did! 

Likewise!

 

So many options on here, I've just bought another G-10 (Eduard) so I can have a crack at another of these schemes...

[Werdna]

So, revisiting this topic, rather than starting a new thread....

 

I'll be starting the (above-mentioned) 1/48 Eduard 'Regensburg' Bf109G-10 shortly.  I was intending to use the kit decals for the all-over light blue 'white 43' a/c of NJG 11.  There's plenty of info around on 'white 43', including some excellent hi-res pics on the FalkeEins pages and lots of completed builds of it from various different kits.  However, whilst trawling for info, I also came across options for another NJG 11 aircraft - 'white 4' - there's an impression of it here:

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/HMD48042

 

The W.Nr of this a/c is not clear, but I suspect building this would be relatively straight forward, and I could simply modify the kit decals to suit.  

 

A couple of questions for the 109 experts out there:

 

1. Does anyone have more info on this 109?

2. Is this likely to be a Regensburg aircraft - or doesn't it matter.  (The answer might well be 'build it how you like', but I'd still be interested to know).

3. This a/c features a second colour on the front/lower engine cowling - to me it looks like either RLM 02 or possibly '84'.  Any thoughts?  There may well be a colour guide in the decal set, but I don't have it and probably won't need it with what I already have.  Someone else may have the set and might have the answer...

 

Thanks in advance  

[Troy Smith]

10 hours ago, Werdna said:

However, whilst trawling for info, I also came across options for another NJG 11 aircraft - 'white 4' - there's an impression of it here:

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/HMD48042

 

The W.Nr of this a/c is not clear, but I suspect building this would be relatively straight forward, and I could simply modify the kit decals to suit.  

 

A couple of questions for the 109 experts out there:

 

1. Does anyone have more info on this 109?

2. Is this likely to be a Regensburg aircraft - or doesn't it matter.  (The answer might well be 'build it how you like', but I'd still be interested to know).

3. This a/c features a second colour on the front/lower engine cowling - to me it looks like either RLM 02 or possibly '84'.  Any thoughts?  There may well be a colour guide in the decal set, but I don't have it and probably won't need it with what I already have.  Someone else may have the set and might have the answer...

 

I suspect the answer is "it's cobblers"...

 

why...well, this photo

is captioned 

"Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 15. ... or 49. ... "Weisse ?", 4./NJG 11, Köthen, after 13 April 1945. "

 

the decals caption is identical EXCEPT for the missing ?...which make all the difference, so it's not White 4, but from the 4th staffel...

 

 

there are a few more shots of the same or similar  109 all helpfully taken from the front! 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/albums/72157640134200944

 

The other I don't recognise. Note the profile above show  White 43 with a white rudder, and AFAIK it was overall RLM 76....  

so they have seen a photo with  deflected rudder looking lighter = white rudder...

 

you can see the deflected rudder in the lower shot.....

 

There is a Flickr here  of lots of 109 shots, helpfully arranged in albums in different ways.  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/albums

 

 

I just stuck Bf109 G-10 NJG 11 into google

 

here's white 57 ...compare to the 'profile' 

 

 

 

which when look at the decal art says "cobblers" to me....

 

did find another radar equipped one

 

 

I can vaguely see a number,  7? 

 

Sorry, rambling off.   late, tired. 

Main point,  I think H-Models research is 'less than optimal'

 

If you want a new scheme, you need to follow blogs and sites that scour ebay photo auctions as that is where new info turns up. 

 

HTH

[fastterry]

Just to throw in a coupla bob, I reckon that the photo with the matchstick is an Erla built G-10 (no bumps under the nose and wide radiator) as is white 57. What say you?

TRF

[Planebuilder62]

Hi there

 

AIMS make good decal sets for many Luftwaffe subjects, they are also very well researched.

 

regards Toby

[tank152]

The kindest thing to say about H Models research when it comes to their decals is that it's flaky.

Using white 43 as an example, their profile shows a short tail wheel and no spinner spiral. The photo of White 43 clearly shows that it was fit with a tall tail wheel and spinner spiral! As Troy has already pointed out the rudder was not white (deflected rudder) but RLM 76. 

There was also a White 44 found at the same airfield belonging to the same unit. 

My advice when it comes to H-Models is avoid!

If you want to build a accurate White 43 you'll need to scribe a rectangle in the port side of the Erla canopy to represent the small opening part that was present in the actual aircraft. You can just make it out in Claes's profile. 

[Werdna]

Thanks for the replies all...  I agree the H Models research seems a bit 'questionable', to put it politely.  The white rudder on '43' is certainly a bit of a howler - and in the one pic where it shows as a white rudder, it is clearly at an angle and so reflecting more light.  Shame really, as an error like that just serves to cast doubt (rightly or wrongly) on everything else in those profiles..

8 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

is captioned

"Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 15. ... or 49. ... "Weisse ?", 4./NJG 11, Köthen, after 13 April 1945. "

 

the decals caption is identical EXCEPT for the missing ?...which make all the difference, so it's not White 4, but from the 4th staffel...

So it seems the photographic evidence for the 'white 4' decal artwork may be non-existent?  Either that, or H Models has access to some reference pics that nobody else has seen.  In terms of the pic being of a 4/NJG 11 aircraft, some sources only quote three staffeln for NJG 11 (1, 2 & 10) with no '4/NJG 11', but I could be wrong.  Finally, if H Models did use those pics as the basis for its 'white 4' artwork, then they left off one of the single most obvious identifying features in that pic - ie the spinner spiral.

 

3 hours ago, tank152 said:

If you want to build a accurate White 43 you'll need to scribe a rectangle in the port side of the Erla canopy to represent the small opening part that was present in the actual aircraft. You can just make it out in Claes's profile. 

Thanks, that's an interesting point.  The Eduard kit does actually provide a small decal for this, but scribing it might be a better option.  Basically though, I'm trying to avoid building 'white 43', hence looking for another NJG 11 option.  The 'white 4' is appealing because it meant I could use the kit '43' decals as the basis for it.  The other appealing thing about 'white 4' (and 'yellow 15' below it) is the appearance of another colour to break up the overall RLM 76.  Which is why I was questioning whether it might potentially be RLM 02 or '84'..

[tank152]

1 hour ago, Werdna said:

Thanks for the replies all...  I agree the H Models research seems a bit 'questionable', to put it politely. 

The 'white 4' is appealing because it meant I could use the kit '43' decals as the basis for it.  The other appealing thing about 'white 4' (and 'yellow 15' below it) is the appearance of another colour to break up the overall RLM 76.  Which is why I was questioning whether it might potentially be RLM 02 or '84'..

Perhaps you should take heed of your first paragraph and until some photos crop up of your 2 aircraft just forget about modelling them because as things stand at the moment those profiles are just pure fantasy.

 

[Werdna]

1 hour ago, tank152 said:

Perhaps you should take heed of your first paragraph and until some photos crop up of your 2 aircraft just forget about modelling them because as things stand at the moment those profiles are just pure fantasy.

You're right, of course.  However, such pics might never appear (they may not even exist) - and as far as I know I've only got one lifetime  Also, I've just done a Ta152C as a 'pure fantasy' build, so in those terms I'm on a bit of a roll...  

 

On a separate note - do decal manufacturers/profilers ever respond to threads like this with an indication of their sources or explanation of their rationale?