Airfix 1/48th EE Canberra B(I)8

[amos brierley]

Hi Peter,       Just looking at the nose section drawings, sometime in the future when I’m in the mood for a Canberra one of my must do’s is to add rivet lines to the vast swaths of blandness. So, can you point me in the right direction of any drawings that have rivet lines????             Keep up the good work.

[Peter W]

On 6/12/2020 at 8:07 PM, amos brierley said:

Hi Peter,       Just looking at the nose section drawings, sometime in the future when I’m in the mood for a Canberra one of my must do’s is to add rivet lines to the vast swaths of blandness. So, can you point me in the right direction of any drawings that have rivet lines????             Keep up the good work.

Amos - you must have too much time because this has taken hours of my life to get this far and I'm still not done yet. The thought of adding rivets too 😱. I've not seen any drawings that would accurately show you where to put rivet lines but John (canberra kid) would be the best source of an accurate answer.

 

Pete 

[stever219]

On 6/12/2020 at 8:07 PM, amos brierley said:

Hi Peter,       Just looking at the nose section drawings, sometime in the future when I’m in the mood for a Canberra one of my must do’s is to add rivet lines to the vast swaths of blandness.

Why?  The Canberra is a very smooth-skinned aeroplane; even at a distance of a couple of feet they barely appear as very shallow dimples where the skins have been pulled tight against the frames and stringers.  Boring thousands of tiny holes into the skin will appear about as bad as those who flood Airfix’s already over-deep and over-wide panel lines with dark washes.  The only areas where they might show up are around the forward fuselage where starter exhaust stains accumulate.  (And yes, I have been up close and personal with a number of Canberras😁😁😁😁).

[amos brierley]

Hi Peter.         You could be right there, too many bits and pieces to deal with, maybe riveting is a touch too far. But a challenge is a challenge. I hope you enjoy the road your treading and enjoying the journey and all that........

[amos brierley]

42 minutes ago, stever219 said:

Why?  The Canberra is a very smooth-skinned aeroplane; even at a distance of a couple of feet they barely appear as very shallow dimples where the skins have been pulled tight against the frames and stringers.  Boring thousands of tiny holes into the skin will appear about as bad as those who flood Airfix’s already over-deep and over-wide panel lines with dark washes.  The only areas where they might show up are around the forward fuselage where starter exhaust stains accumulate.  (And yes, I have been up close and personal with a number of Canberras😁😁😁😁).

Yes, you are very correct, the last 30 yrs of my life has been spent playing around with stressed skin A/C and counter sink rivets, now I’m fully carbon fibre conversant EuroFighter +(F-35). But, as a model maker and a winner of a good many awards, to make a Canberra win on the competition table is a different proposition. The more detail the better, an out of the box HobbyBoss Su-27 with a cracking paint job will beat a fully detailed Canberra . In my case, a recent trip to the comp table this year saw me beating a very lovely Canberra PR9  with open nose section and much details to admire.  ........... The panel lines can b reduced and it’s all about sim pathetic enhancement of the detail. I hope this explains where I’m coming from .       And another thing....... some years ago at Bruntingthorp the WT333 run was superb, cartridge start A/C are an eye 👁 opener.

[stever219]

On 6/13/2020 at 11:16 PM, amos brierley said:

Yes, you are very correct, the last 30 yrs of my life has been spent playing around with stressed skin A/C and counter sink rivets, now I’m fully carbon fibre conversant EuroFighter +(F-35). But, as a model maker and a winner of a good many awards, to make a Canberra win on the competition table is a different proposition. The more detail the better, an out of the box HobbyBoss Su-27 with a cracking paint job will beat a fully detailed Canberra . In my case, a recent trip to the comp table this year saw me beating a very lovely Canberra PR9  with open nose section and much details to admire.  ........... The panel lines can b reduced and it’s all about sim pathetic enhancement of the detail. I hope this explains where I’m coming from .       And another thing....... some years ago at Bruntingthorp the WT333 run was superb, cartridge start A/C are an eye 👁 opener.

Why on Earth are competition judges obsessed with “detail” that isn’t even visible on the full-sized aeroplane.  Were I to be presented with two models of, for example, Canberras to judge in identical finishes but one laden with panel line washes, spurious rivets and every access panel hanging open with a full weapons load and the other with most panel lines filled, some starter sooting around the front fuselage, an open but empty weapons bay, or just a couple of stores, and a bit of grot underneath thrown up by the wheels I should prefer the latter as more representative of the full-sized aeroplane.

 

I’m not a competitive modeller, nor do I want to be.  I try to build models of subjects that interest me and to distract me from the “joys” of day-to-day events: busting a gut over it to please some blokes with an odd idea of “perfection” isn’t my cup of tea.  I can remember when modellers and reviewers complained like hell about kits covered in raised rivets, then kit manufacturers eliminated rivets and replaced them with engraved lines so now modellers and kit manufacturers replicate the lost rivets with small-diameter holes, but none of them truly replicate what actually goes on.

 

I will agree with you on one thing though: Canberra engine starts are definitely impressive, I could watch them all day.

Edited June 25, 2020 by stever219

[amos brierley]

Hi stever219,        Further to the discussion,  there are many forms of modelling and how a subject is portrayed, for me I love detail, but not all my models are about panels open, and engines on show. A large portion of my models it’s as much about a good paint job and cracking decals, a one off colour scheme may add to the visual effects. I never make models for the comp, all are what I want in my own collection, but, getting some recognition for effort is a guide as to my level of building.   A point to make, for some years I’ve sprayed rivet lines on as either the original colour as darker or lighter for effect as part of the 3D effect I’m looking for. Many of my models have as many as five colours of the base paint sprayed on to create tone, depth, weathering effect and visual appeal.  A recent Trumpeter F100F build had what I wanted, rivets, but what set my model apart from other F100’s was its four colour Djibouti French scheme. The kit manufacturer did most of the hard work, my own interpretation and air brushing skills did the rest. 

      Now then, that’s enough from me, and I’m ready to give my support for this build and look fwd to seeing further works done. As a final note, I still need modelling inspiration, I’m 👀 looking forward to this build as it’s now four months since I’ve got to chat with club members, see what they’ve done, doing and how they are tackling a subject.  This point, Covid 19 could see no club nights until August?

Stay safe.

[Peter W]

Time for a bit of a catch up to show that I've done something. It's amazing how much work needs to be done to this kit, just to make somewhere presentable. I guess that I'm preaching to the converted for a lot of you that have already tackled one of the Airfix Canberra's but the remedial work feels like it's never going to end. Still hasn't but I'm getting there. I think that all of the main re-scribing is done, still got the drop tanks to look at but for now I need to move on and glue something together. 

 

I added the various inlets on the leading edge of the wings.

 

Then set about adding the underwing light. I filed a shoulder on a piece of round sprue and drilled a hole in the wing to accept it. I the drilled a hole down the centre of it, from the inside, to try and give some impression of a bulb. Then cleaned it all up with a final polish.

 

Next came the rest of the wing work after having glued the wings together. The engine inlet and exhausts were glued on and then came hours of cleaning up steps, gaps etc. The exhausts really aren't the best of fits and have quite a step to clean up. The inlets are a lovely bit of resin but, again have some gaps to deals, weirdly a lot worse on one side than the other. Nothing that some plasticard and superglue can't fix though. I tend to use superglue as a filler as it dries rock hard and can be scribed a lot better than normal filler, in my opinion anyway. Finally added a couple of plates that were missing.

 

Then the bit that I'd been avoiding, the fuselage stiffening plates. I took a few attempts to get the shape close to what I think it is, but probably still not that accurate. Happy with them though, just a bit of clean up left to do once the primer coat goes on. I tacked them in place with superglue, working my way around, and then run some Tamiya liquid cement (others may work just as well) in to lock them down.

 

Which left me with the flaps to re-scribe and add the trim tabs. That brings me to here: -

 

I think that I'm ready to glue something together now, phew or words to that effect.

 

Back soon

[amos brierley]

Hi-yer ,           Some very nice work, glad to see time well spent. 

[Peter W]

I'm really going to have to be careful handling this one because it is now so front heavy with all the weight in place. The crazy thing is that it still is borderline on being a tail sitter and that is more than the 100g that Airfix suggest. Just need to give the undercarriage a course of steroids before I add them and all should be good.

 

 

Then begins the slow process of getting it all together and this is how she's looking now. The cockpit shroud will be aligned once the fuselage glue is all dry.

 

 

Having fun with this one, long may it continue.

Pete

[amos brierley]

Hi Peter,      A trick I’ve used in the past is flat spotted tyres, more  commonly known at weighted wheels. You may well need to add a little weigh in the engine nacelles as well to save over stressing the nose leg. 

 

You wait for a Canberra B (l) 8 build to come along and then like  waiting for alien space ships to come along 👽 Martian has now started a build .

Stay safe.

Edited June 20, 2020 by amos brierley
Additional comment.

[Peter W]

On 6/19/2020 at 8:18 PM, amos brierley said:

Hi Peter,      A trick I’ve used in the past is flat spotted tyres, more  commonly known at weighted wheels. You may well need to add a little weigh in the engine nacelles as well to save over stressing the nose leg. 

 

You wait for a Canberra B (l) 8 build to come along and then like  waiting for alien space ships to come along 👽 Martian has now started a build .

Stay safe.

Hi Amos, yes I used that trick om my last build of the Airfix Meteor just to give it some extra resistance to falling over backwards.

 

This must already be a candidate for the longest thread on filling, filling and repeat, in my BM history, probably not BM's though as these Canberra's have been tackled many times before. I got the MasterCasters corrected fin to save more filling on the kit part but it really isn't the life saving part that I hoped that it would be. The spurious panel lines are all filled but you can see from the casting that it appears like the Airfix part has just been used to form the mould, you can still see evidence of the lines at the front of the casting. Not a problem apart from the fact that all of the Airfix flaps and rudder are too thick for the gap that they go in. So, more sanding to reduce the thickness before it could go on. The front end, canopy shroud really took some work to get a clean finish too, such an awkward part to glue and hold in place. Got there in the end, just a few lines to scribe in and It will be ok. Last job was to reshape the leading edge of the vertical tail. Thankfully the plastic is so thick that it can be done really easily. All set up now waiting for some superglue filler to set up on the wing to fuselage joints and then I can press on.

 

 

Back soon

Pete

Edited June 21, 2020 by Peter W

[Peter W]

Back again with a small update.

 

I took a break from the big stuff to get some of the smaller bits ready for painting.

 

I really need a bigger magnifying glass or better magnification in my Optivisor, or both.

 

Got the brake line in place but most of it is attached to the gear door, so that will have to be done later

 

Lastly, added a few little details to the otherwise plain and boring drop tanks.

 

Getting ever closer but beginning to take over the work area now, didn't realise how big this would be in 48th scale. I've already tried it in the display cabinet and it doesn't fit. Heaven knows where the other three in the stash will go when I get around to them.

 

Back soon

Pete

[Spec7]

Some really nice work going on here

[Peter W]

39 minutes ago, Spec7 said:

Some really nice work going on here

Thanks Spec7, sadly most of it will probable disappear by the end but I will know it's there.

 

Pete

[Peter W]

I finally think that this one is ready for a wash and a paint job. I got fed up waiting for the Japanese postal system to get out of its slow down and ordered a replacement Hypersonic canopy from The48ers and that arrived pretty quickly, so spent a few hours getting that stuck on. Then a final clean up, followed by, what felt like, a marathon masking session. That brings me to here and ready for a weekend of undercoats and making good before getting some colour on. 

 

 

Pete

[71chally]

2 hours ago, Peter W said:

I got fed up waiting for the Japanese postal system to get out of its slow down and ordered a replacement Hypersonic canopy from The48ers and that arrived pretty quickly, so spent a few hours getting that stuck on.

I ordered some bits from Hypersonic in Japan about two months ago, and they got here 5 days, I was surprised.  Probably the fastest delivered item of anything that I've ordered recently.

 

That Canberra looks a beauty, definitely worth all the corrective work that you're putting in.

The wheels look really nice, are they the kit ones?

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

On 6/19/2020 at 8:18 PM, amos brierley said:

You may well need to add a little weigh in the engine nacelles as well to save over stressing the nose leg.

 

It doesn't matter if you distribute weight along the leading edges of the wings, in the nose, or on the end of a 6 foot long fishing rod gaffer taped to the nose - all weight in excess of that necessary to balance on the main wheels must be reacted by the nose wheel so the nose wheel gets no respite if the weight is added in the engine nacelles instead of the cockpit.

 

What can be said though is that the greater the lever arm any weight added has from the main wheels, the (much) less weight you need of it to achieve balance. Adding weight to the engine nacelles instead of in the tip of the nose is about 1/5th as effective in a Canberra shaped aeroplane at offsetting the excess weight of the tail - so the main undercarriage has to carry 5 times as much weight in the engine nacelles for a balanced model as they'd have to carry if it was far forward in the nose.

 

That's just physics.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

On 6/14/2020 at 1:50 PM, stever219 said:

Why on Earth are competition judges obsessed with “detail” that isn’t even visible on the full-sized aeroplane.  Were I to be presented with two models of, for example, Canberras to judge in identical finishes but one laden with panel line washes, spurious rivets and every access panel hanging open with a full weapons load and the other with most panel lines filled, some starter sooting around the front fuselage, an open but empty weapons bay, or just a couple of stores, and a bit of grot underneath thrown up by the wheels I should prefer the latter as more representative of the full-sized aeroplane.

 

Steve whilst I find myself arriving at entirely the same conclusion as you do, the reason for the above is principally that judges (in UK, IPMS rules competition) are allowed to consider "sense of realism" but anything remotely technical is strictly off limits and instead judges can only judge the execution of what they see presented. If you like, the shake & bake Tamiya kit with the fewest modelling cock-ups like dodgy seams, gluey fingerprints and grainy paintwork will win. Adding detail is opportunity to add execution mistakes such as wonky bits of PE etc. If you can make a model with much more activity needed to finish it, and maintain the quality of the shake & bake, then you beat the shake & bake entrant.

 

Judges can't get into whether something is representative or accurate because unlike, for instance, r/c class F4C which the static judging requires a dossier of supporting documentation, plastic model judges can't be expected to assess all the manner of curios that ends up on the table.

 

You've probably heard endless tails from competitions about how "some idiot judge told me my Beauquito was inaccurate but then I told him my father was the pilot of this exact machine in 1944 and gave me a photograph showing it carrying Polaris ICBMs under each wing" - ad nauseum. This is precisely why judges don't consider accuracy.

 

For all the reasons, I find myself disinterested in competitions. Really it boils down to who's got the most time to spend on a single model - not something I object to personally - but I've got entirely too many responsibilities and commitments to spend 4 hours a day on a model months on end to win the nationals. It would take me 10 years to get that many man-hours into a model and for it to have to be covered in spurious eye candy to win at that - I'm out.

 

 

[Peter W]

10 hours ago, 71chally said:

I ordered some bits from Hypersonic in Japan about two months ago, and they got here 5 days, I was surprised.  Probably the fastest delivered item of anything that I've ordered recently.

 

That Canberra looks a beauty, definitely worth all the corrective work that you're putting in.

The wheels look really nice, are they the kit ones?

Hi James - Mine sat at Osaka airport from the the 5th June until the 29th June, then moved to the shipper, where they sat for another 7 days. They are now in the UK somewhere but who knows when they will turn up. To be honest, if I'd have know the The48ers had them then I would have just gone there in the first place. It's not Jeffrey's (Hypersonic) fault, just current climate but still frustrating when you want to get on. At least I will have a couple of canopies in the stash for future builds. The wheels are from CMK and do look nice. Not sure how much will be seen under the belly of this beast but we will all know that they are there.

2 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

It doesn't matter if you distribute weight along the leading edges of the wings, in the nose, or on the end of a 6 foot long fishing rod gaffer taped to the nose - all weight in excess of that necessary to balance on the main wheels must be reacted by the nose wheel so the nose wheel gets no respite if the weight is added in the engine nacelles instead of the cockpit.

 

What can be said though is that the greater the lever arm any weight added has from the main wheels, the (much) less weight you need of it to achieve balance. Adding weight to the engine nacelles instead of in the tip of the nose is about 1/5th as effective in a Canberra shaped aeroplane at offsetting the excess weight of the tail - so the main undercarriage has to carry 5 times as much weight in the engine nacelles for a balanced model as they'd have to carry if it was far forward in the nose.

 

That's just physics.

Jamie, that's why I got all of my added weight as far forward as I could. As you say it's a pretty simple lever equation. It doesn't help on this kit that there is so much mass of plastic. I don't think that I've ever seen plastic so thick, not since the old Frog models of my youth anyway.

 

Pete

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

It's very chunky!

[stever219]

4 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

You've probably heard endless tails from competitions about how "some idiot judge told me my Beauquito was inaccurate but then I told him my father was the pilot of this exact machine in 1944 and gave me a photograph showing it carrying Polaris ICBMs under each wing" - ad nauseum. This is precisely why judges don't consider accuracy.

 

It would take me 10 years to get that many man-hours into a model and for it to have to be covered in spurious eye candy to win at that - I'm out.

 

 

Jamie indeed I have: a friend of mine worked at RAE Bedford (as well as being ex-RAF) and built a model of a Dakota that he’d worked on.  The judge took one look at the model and said “That’s wrong, that aeroplane never had a radome there!”  “It did,” said my friend “I built and installed it!”  So saying he then disappeared to the car park and retrieved his logbook showing the work that he’d done.  Needless to say he still didn’t get a prize.

 

Like you I’ve never had the time or resources to spend that long on a single model (a child, up to 3 cats and, until last year, paid employment amongst other things have seen to that) but I do like to improve where I can, or just add some difference to give my models a bit of individuality.

[Peter W]

Can't believe how quick posts go down the list when you don't keep up with things, and it's only been 4 days.

 

So this is just a quick update to show that something is going on. I got a coat of silver on the underside and now the mammoth masking session begins. Not much to mask but lots of tape 😁

 

 

Pete

[amos brierley]

Hi yer.             It doesn’t take long before your five pages down the pecking order.......     it’s a busy place this forum.

 

Take care Stay safe.

[Peter W]

9 hours ago, amos brierley said:

Hi yer.             It doesn’t take long before your five pages down the pecking order.......     it’s a busy place this forum.

 

Take care Stay safe.

Hi Amos,

 

Got to start trying to keep up, as a lot of our old school reports used to say 'Tries hard, must do better'

 

Pete