Kittyhawks in Italy

[leyreynolds]

Can anyone recommend references for Kittyhawk op's/camo'/markings in Italy please?

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

This is a good thread I hope it helps you. 

 

 

Dennis

[Buz]

leyreynolds

 

There is some information around, however its a broad spectrum and a lot of variables involved. Can you help by narrowing down what in Particular you are after, the Operations are easy, camouflage is dependent on time/place, markings, well fairly standard (to a point), however again if you can let us know a particular unit, or aircraft then maybe the answers can be provide.

 

Regards

 

Buz

Edited May 25, 2020 by Buz

[Wirestrike]

Hi all,

I don't mean to hijack this particular thread started by leyreynolds, but believe it to be the most appropriate one to query about RAF Kittyhawks in Italy in 1945. My query is specific to Kittyhawk IV FX820 (USAF serial number 43-23773), initially operated by 5 Sqn (SAAF), the first recorded Ops sortie being 4/6/44. On this day it was damaged by light caliber flak and damaged again on 22/9/44, this time by 20mm flak.

After repair on the second occasion, the aircraft was sent to 250 (RAF) squadron. My query is specific to when the aircraft was at 250 (RAF) Sqn and more specifically on 22/4/1945. The aircraft was being pilot by a family member of my wife (Lt. Bertram Bernard McLeroth, force number: 206907v). He was a SAAF pilot who was seconded to the 250 (RAF) Sqn . On 22/4/'45 he was shot down and killed whilst carrying out a strike on Germans crossing the River Po and heading towards Ferrara. 

I have not been able to establish the a/c letter (neither 5 Sqn (SAAF) or 250 (RAF) Sqn recorded this in their diaries. What I have found rather confusing is the camo that would have been in use at the time. On another thread (link below) in this forum I found conflicting information which I totally understand - there seems to be very little documented wrt this during this phase of the war. Any assistance would be appreciated. I would like to do a 1/32 scale Kitty as accurately as possible to this era/date and squadron. Also, if anyone has info re the pilot, that would be equally appreciated. 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Wirestrike

[Ed Russell]

If anyone can help you it will be @Buz or @Hornet133 so they may be along shortly!

[Hornet133]

I can't help re the code letter on FX820.

 

Re the Dark Earth and US Olive Drab colour scheme, all P-40Ns for the RAF were delivered in the standard scheme of Olive Drab upper and Neutral Grey lower surfaces. Standard procedure was for the RAF to apply a disruptive pattern of RAF Dark Earth to the upper surfaces to give an approximation of the RAF Temperate scheme.

 

Steve Mackenzie 

[Buz]

Wirestrike

 

Sorry I've looked through my info, but I'm afraid I can't add much, the damaged on the 4th Jun 1944 was Cat 1, so repairable at the Unit (Lt Wright was the Pilot), the damage 22nd Sep 1944 was more serious with it sustain Cat 2 damage requiring repair at a Maintenance Unit departing the Unit on the 25th Sep for said repairs. I agree with Steve's notes above as to its likely finish whilst with 5 SQN, code letters would have been white, with a white upper tip to the Tail unit.

 

Aircraft wasn't issued until mid Apr 1945 to 250SQN and had only been with the Unit a few days when lost - As it had been at an MU with significant damage, my suggestion is its likely to have been repainted using RAF Paints Dark Green/Dark Earth Uppers with Middle Grey Lowers. Codes again white and by this time quite small/thin and blocky.

 

Pictures and information is extremely hard to come by for Code and serial match ups for 250SQN (as it is for most Units), as are photos, however I'll keep my eyes open for you, and should I come across anything in my travels (once travel restrictions stop) I'll forward. If you drop me a PM I can forward one or two photos to give you some idea of the finish.

 

Buz

[Wirestrike]

Thanks so much Buz, appreciated. PM sent. 

[leyreynolds]

On 5/27/2020 at 12:42 PM, Wirestrike said:

Hi all,

I don't mean to hijack this particular thread started by leyreynolds, but believe it to be the most appropriate one to query about RAF Kittyhawks in Italy in 1945. My query is specific to Kittyhawk IV FX820 (USAF serial number 43-23773), initially operated by 5 Sqn (SAAF), the first recorded Ops sortie being 4/6/44. On this day it was damaged by light caliber flak and damaged again on 22/9/44, this time by 20mm flak.

After repair on the second occasion, the aircraft was sent to 250 (RAF) squadron. My query is specific to when the aircraft was at 250 (RAF) Sqn and more specifically on 22/4/1945. The aircraft was being pilot by a family member of my wife (Lt. Bertram Bernard McLeroth, force number: 206907v). He was a SAAF pilot who was seconded to the 250 (RAF) Sqn . On 22/4/'45 he was shot down and killed whilst carrying out a strike on Germans crossing the River Po and heading towards Ferrara. 

I have not been able to establish the a/c letter (neither 5 Sqn (SAAF) or 250 (RAF) Sqn recorded this in their diaries. What I have found rather confusing is the camo that would have been in use at the time. On another thread (link below) in this forum I found conflicting information which I totally understand - there seems to be very little documented wrt this during this phase of the war. Any assistance would be appreciated. I would like to do a 1/32 scale Kitty as accurately as possible to this era/date and squadron. Also, if anyone has info re the pilot, that would be equally appreciated. 

 

 

All very interesting but not at all related to my original question. Why didn't you just start a new topic?

[Wirestrike]

14 hours ago, leyreynolds said:

All very interesting but not at all related to my original question. Why didn't you just start a new topic?

Comment treated with the contempt it deserves. 

[Dave Fleming]

On 5/27/2020 at 1:58 PM, Hornet133 said:

I can't help re the code letter on FX820.

 

Re the Dark Earth and US Olive Drab colour scheme, all P-40Ns for the RAF were delivered in the standard scheme of Olive Drab upper and Neutral Grey lower surfaces. Standard procedure was for the RAF to apply a disruptive pattern of RAF Dark Earth to the upper surfaces to give an approximation of the RAF Temperate scheme.

 

Steve Mackenzie 

 

That's interesting - is this new information? I don't recall that being the opinion when I last looked at this about 15 years ago. (It makes a lot of sense)

[leyreynolds]

1 hour ago, Wirestrike said:

Comment treated with the contempt it deserves. 

Baaaaa!

[Sydhuey]

2 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

That's interesting - is this new information? I don't recall that being the opinion when I last looked at this about 15 years ago. (It makes a lot of sense)

Dave , I think RAF P-40N's have like all RAF P-40's had the fixation on desert scheme , a few like Buz and Steve have tried to debunk the myth for awhile now with research on correct schemes with late model Kittyhawks over Italy, the TLS scheme applied to Kittyhawks over Italy was not a definitive set of colours but basically Green/Brown over a lighter Sky colour. new aircraft delivered in OD over NG had a Dark Earth pattern applied over the OD , latter many that went to MU's for OH had the NG replaced with British colours Medium Sea Grey and the OD with Dark Green, a bit of a can of worms but the main thing is Kitty IV's were not in Desert scheme over Italy.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Sorry to tack a question on here but it may have some bearing to the discussion. Did Curtiss Kittyhawk’s use an “A” & “B” type patterns ? Or was everyone painted identical ? Im trying to determine this because Im doing an RAF 112 Sq. K/hawk III and an SAAF 2 Sq. K/Hawk III.  Ive seen color layouts showing the patterns and profiles flipped on planes. If so was it serial based or just random ? Thank you in advance for any help ? 
 

Dennis 

[Sydhuey]

5 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Sorry to tack a question on here but it may have some bearing to the discussion. Did Curtiss Kittyhawk’s use an “A” & “B” type patterns ? Or was everyone painted identical ? Im trying to determine this because Im doing an RAF 112 Sq. K/hawk III and an SAAF 2 Sq. K/Hawk III.  Ive seen color layouts showing the patterns and profiles flipped on planes. If so was it serial based or just random ? Thank you in advance for any help ? 
 

Dennis 

No there is only a single pattern , there is the occasional oddball but as a rule a single pattern , the fixation with Desert schemes on Kittyhawks causes photo's to be misinterpreted in favour of the Desert Scheme, Dark Earth is in the same place for both Desert and TLS, in B&W photo's the Dark Earth is the dark colour and Middle Stone the light colour on Desert schemes and on TLS schemes the Dark Green/Olive Drab is the Dark Colour and Dark Earth the light colour.

 

The ultimate misinterpretation and mistake on an aircraft is the Kittyhawk IV at the RAF museum , it is in the wrong scheme and reversed, it should be in a TLS scheme, Olive Drab where the Dark Earth is and Dark Earth where the Middle Stone is, fixation with Desert scheme caused photo's of this aircraft to be misinterpreted  and the wrong reversed scheme was applied.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Sydhuey

[Hornet133]

All kittyhawks with a 2 tone upper surface built against the RAF contract (the exception is the P-40Ns) came from the factory in 'B' pattern. A very very small number received local repaints where they had 'A' pattern applied.

 

Unless you have very clear photographic proof of an 'A' pattern ignore any drawings that show a non 'B' pattern scheme as they are probably wrong.

 

Steve Mackenzie

Edited May 31, 2020 by Hornet133

[Super Aereo]

12 hours ago, Sydhuey said:

No there is only a single pattern , there is the occasional oddball but as a rule a single pattern , the fixation with Desert schemes on Kittyhawks causes photo's to be misinterpreted in favour of the Desert Scheme, Dark Earth is in the same place for both Desert and TLS, in B&W photo's the Dark Earth is the dark colour and Middle Stone the light colour on Desert schemes and on TLS schemes the Dark Green/Olive Drab is the Dark Colour and Dark Earth the light colour.

 

The ultimate misinterpretation and mistake on an aircraft is the Kittyhawk IV at the RAF museum , it is in the wrong scheme and reversed, it should be in a TLS scheme, Olive Drab where the Dark Earth is and Dark Earth where the Middle Stone is, fixation with Desert scheme caused photo's of this aircraft to be misinterpreted  and the wrong reversed scheme was applied.

 

 

 

A well-respected aviation historian doubted me when I told him that the Kittyhawk IV at Hendon sports a spurious scheme. When he asked me if I knew more than the Museum's curators I had to tell him that yes, in this case I probably do...

 

Glad to know I am not alone in wincing every time I see that airframe...

[tonyot]

On 5/31/2020 at 9:01 AM, Sydhuey said:

No there is only a single pattern , there is the occasional oddball but as a rule a single pattern , the fixation with Desert schemes on Kittyhawks causes photo's to be misinterpreted in favour of the Desert Scheme, Dark Earth is in the same place for both Desert and TLS, in B&W photo's the Dark Earth is the dark colour and Middle Stone the light colour on Desert schemes and on TLS schemes the Dark Green/Olive Drab is the Dark Colour and Dark Earth the light colour.

 

The ultimate misinterpretation and mistake on an aircraft is the Kittyhawk IV at the RAF museum , it is in the wrong scheme and reversed, it should be in a TLS scheme, Olive Drab where the Dark Earth is and Dark Earth where the Middle Stone is, fixation with Desert scheme caused photo's of this aircraft to be misinterpreted  and the wrong reversed scheme was applied.

 

 

Well said about the RAF Museum aircraft,...... I wrote to them years ago about this and even sent them a few photos of my model along with reference pics etc,..... but never got a reply!

 

Now I`m not saying my model is 100% correct,.....but it is better than they have it! 

 

The same with their Thunderbolt too,......no camouflaged aircraft ever had a fin fillet,....so it should be bare metal! I told them that too! 

All the best mate

                           Tony

Edited June 1, 2020 by tonyot

[Dave Fleming]

On 5/30/2020 at 2:59 AM, Sydhuey said:

Dave , I think RAF P-40N's have like all RAF P-40's had the fixation on desert scheme , a few like Buz and Steve have tried to debunk the myth for awhile now with research on correct schemes with late model Kittyhawks over Italy, the TLS scheme applied to Kittyhawks over Italy was not a definitive set of colours but basically Green/Brown over a lighter Sky colour. new aircraft delivered in OD over NG had a Dark Earth pattern applied over the OD , latter many that went to MU's for OH had the NG replaced with British colours Medium Sea Grey and the OD with Dark Green, a bit of a can of worms but the main thing is Kitty IV's were not in Desert scheme over Italy.

 

Thanks

 

The fact that they weren't in Desert scheme has been known for a while, I had the discussion first on various fora about 20 years ago after coming to that conclusion examining photos. This was the first I'd heard of the Ns being OD/NG with brown over the top 

[Buz]

Dave

 

I tried to tell the RAF Museum when I  first identified the aircraft for them back in early 2000's. However they haven't been the only Museum not to listen when it comes to P-40's. As for the N's being OD/NG with the Brown over the Top, all I can say is check out the Rudder and tail sections (just a couple of examples and yes both are N models).

 

TL KITTYHAWK IV FX709 by Buz 1970, on Flickr

 

SCANSEP09 (61) by Buz 1970, on Flickr

 

Sometimes we miss things even when we are looking at them

 

Buz

Edited June 2, 2020 by Buz

[Sydhuey]

1 hour ago, Buz said:

Dave

 

I tried to tell the RAF Museum when I  first identified the aircraft for them back in early 2000's. However they haven't been the only Museum not to listen when it comes to P-40's. As for the N's being OD/NG with the Brown over the Top, all I can say is check out the Rudder and tail sections (just a couple of examples and yes both are N models).

 

TL KITTYHAWK IV FX709 by Buz 1970, on Flickr

 

SCANSEP09 (61) by Buz 1970, on Flickr

 

Sometimes we miss things even when we are looking at them

 

Buz

Wow thanks Buz those pics are pretty definitive, Dark Earth over the original OD with Medium Green scollops.  

[Dave Fleming]

7 hours ago, Buz said:

Dave

 

I tried to tell the RAF Museum when I  first identified the aircraft for them back in early 2000's. However they haven't been the only Museum not to listen when it comes to P-40's. As for the N's being OD/NG with the Brown over the Top, all I can say is check out the Rudder and tail sections (just a couple of examples and yes both are N models).

 

TL KITTYHAWK IV FX709 by Buz 1970, on Flickr

 

SCANSEP09 (61) by Buz 1970, on Flickr

 

Sometimes we miss things even when we are looking at them

 

Buz

wonderful. It also might explain the odd aircraft claimed to be in OD/NG (although I still suspect that’s just muddy photos, but that was on assumption they were delivered in Desert scheme)