De Havilland D.H.60 Gipsy Moth, double build, 1/72 Avis and Amodel kits

[John Aero]

UR is described in The McKay Moth book as being Bright Red and the photo also shows the wings also to appear to  be a darker colour (Red?). If I were doing this machine, I think that I would go for overall Red with Silver lettering. Red wings on an aeroplane flying in snowy conditions would seem to be sensible. I think that the flying surfaces of the later ZR were Silver. Silver lettering was quite common on  interwars aeroplane fuselages as it would stand out, it matched the (usual) Silver aerofoil surfaces and Silver is a dense but light paint for covering strong colours. Being reflective in certain lights it often appears White. At some point UR borrowed the port wings from ZR after UR was damaged in a gale.

 

Silver (Aluminium) Dope was a very common wing finish because it was lightweight, reflective and UV resistant. It was adopted by both the military and civil aircraft operators. Virtually all light aircraft wings were painted in Silver, though of course there will always be exceptions.

John

 

PS Post 64 looks like the window sill with dead flies in my old garden shed. 😉

[John Aero]

I just remembered the floats. The floats were definitely Shorts floats and the standard finish for these was a waterproof White enamel (Emalite???). From memory.

 

Just to throw things into confusion on page 139 of McKay's Moth UR is described as going aboard ship as being Dark red and Silver so unless the photo with the dark wings has been mis-developed and the wings are Silver I would still go with Silver letters on the fuselage..

 

John

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

2 hours ago, John Aero said:

UR is described in The McKay Moth book as being Bright Red and the photo also shows the wings also to appear to  be a darker colour (Red?). If I were doing this machine, I think that I would go for overall Red with Silver lettering. Red wings on an aeroplane flying in snowy conditions would seem to be sensible. I think that the flying surfaces of the later ZR were Silver. Silver lettering was quite common on  interwars aeroplane fuselages as it would stand out, it matched the (usual) Silver aerofoil surfaces and Silver is a dense but light paint for covering strong colours. Being reflective in certain lights it often appears White. At some point UR borrowed the port wings from ZR after UR was damaged in a gale.

 

Silver (Aluminium) Dope was a very common wing finish because it was lightweight, reflective and UV resistant. It was adopted by both the military and civil aircraft operators. Virtually all light aircraft wings were painted in Silver, though of course there will always be exceptions.

John

 

PS Post 64 looks like the window sill with dead flies in my old garden shed. 😉

Thanks, John, we are on a good track then.

Cheers

 

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

2 hours ago, John Aero said:

I just remembered the floats. The floats were definitely Shorts floats and the standard finish for these was a waterproof White enamel (Emalite???). From memory.

 

Just to throw things into confusion on page 139 of McKay's Moth UR is described as going aboard ship as being Dark red and Silver so unless the photo with the dark wings has been mis-developed and the wings are Silver I would still go with Silver letters.

 

John

I had the right suspicion regarding the floats, then, excellent!

Thanks again, John.

I will have another look at all the photos and further comment on this.

Cheers

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

2 hours ago, John Aero said:

UR is described in The McKay Moth book as being Bright Red and the photo also shows the wings also to appear to  be a darker colour (Red?). If I were doing this machine, I think that I would go for overall Red with Silver lettering. Red wings on an aeroplane flying in snowy conditions would seem to be sensible. I think that the flying surfaces of the later ZR were Silver. Silver lettering was quite common on  interwars aeroplane fuselages as it would stand out, it matched the (usual) Silver aerofoil surfaces and Silver is a dense but light paint for covering strong colours. Being reflective in certain lights it often appears White. At some point UR borrowed the port wings from ZR after UR was damaged in a gale.

 

Silver (Aluminium) Dope was a very common wing finish because it was lightweight, reflective and UV resistant. It was adopted by both the military and civil aircraft operators. Virtually all light aircraft wings were painted in Silver, though of course there will always be exceptions.

John

 

PS Post 64 looks like the window sill with dead flies in my old garden shed. 😉

Hi John

Your rationale is very sound, but I just went back to the photos and, although silver remains a possibility for the flying surfaces and regs -even if the hue is definitely very dark in some photos- the Moth logo (that was iirc silver?) on the tail has a higher reflective rate than the surroundings (supposedly also silver).

Here is page 5 of the photo catalog at the Scott Polar Research Institute, where the first photos of the planes appear.

You may follow on to page 6, etc, for more photos.

https://www.spri.cam.ac.uk/picturelibrary/catalogue/baare/gallery/page5.html

 

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

 

More here, John, -together with other Arctic planes- for the ones with "Arctic and Antarctic Frost Bite", like @StephenCJ

https://www.freezeframe.ac.uk/?s=moth&images=1

and following pages.

 

Nah, John, those wings I believe unlikely that they were silver dope...

Again, look at the logo on the fin and the general hue of the flying surfaces:

 

I am leaning towards another high-vis color, like yellow or light orange

[John Aero]

I am in agreement with you Moa now that I've seen the above photo. The tone of the wings is  an absolute match for the  fuselage tone of the Orange and Black  painted 60X's of the National Flying Services aircraft, which leads me to think that ZR was Orange and Silver.

 

John

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

34 minutes ago, John Aero said:

I am in agreement with you Moa now that I've seen the above photo. The tone of the wings is  an absolute match for the  fuselage tone of the Orange and Black  painted 60X's of the National Flying Services aircraft, which leads me to think that ZR was Orange and Silver.

 

John

I concur!

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

Nice detail as mentioned before:

 

Here the two Moths as now. To remove and clean those very small, very fragile struts is a task better carried with patience and care...

NOTICE : the different upper wings (with and without slats), the differently bent exhausts, different rudders, different fuel tank on top.

 

The Arctic plane had a little blister on the cheek, that flew from the sprue to the Great Beyond, so another was made:

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

The mechanical resistance of those tiny and weak components is close to nil (that's no fault of the manufacturer, they are closer to scale).

Since assembling the upper wing and undercarriage unavoidably involve stresses, this will be interesting.

What have I gotten myself into, and doubly so!

 

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

NOTE: parts 15 and 18 are mixed (reversed) in the instructions. One is a tailskid and the other a joystick.

This is the second mishap (the first being the engine the instructions will have you glue downside-up) -that I could tell.

[John Aero]

I think that we're fortunate that the film used appears not to be Orthochromatic. Having looked hard at the Scott institute photos and reading a little more, both the Artic expedition Moths were smashed a couple of times and rebuilt by swopping parts around to get at least one flyable aeroplane. I note from the photos that at some point the rudder is quite different on (I think) ZR . UR is given two colour descriptions in the McKay text, one of dark Red and Silver and on a photo caption (McKay) as Bright Red. This is the one where the wings appear to be perhaps Orange?

 

ZR certainly looks to have Silver wings and possibly the fuselage is Orange with the registration in all probability Black, with white or Silver outline on the fuselage letters.

 

John

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

2 minutes ago, John Aero said:

I think that we're fortunate that the film used appears not to be Orthochromatic. Having looked hard at the Scott institute photos and reading a little more, both the Artic expedition Moths were smashed a couple of times and rebuilt by swopping parts around to get at least one flyable aeroplane. I note from the photos that at some point the rudder is quite different on (I think) ZR . UR is given two colour descriptions in the McKay text, one of dark Red and Silver and on a photo caption (McKay) as Bright Red. This is the one where the wings appear to be perhaps Orange?

 

ZR certainly looks to have Silver wings and possibly the fuselage is Orange with the registration in all probability Black, with white or Silver outline on the fuselage letters.

 

John

You are correct, John, the rebuilds are described in accounts, and the photos show them.

I will go for (one of?) the scheme(s?) that I believe is red fuselage, orange flying surfaces and white floats for UR. }

So help me Styrene, Muse of Modeling.

 

P/S: ZR has that nice motif on the rudder of the polar bear. THREE different versions of that tail with the polar bear can be seen, altering backgrounds. Talk about smashing and patching.

 

[Patrik]

Hi Moa,

started my Genet Moth parallel build just today, though I am sure I will never be able to catch up with your unparalleled building speed. When going through your build for inspiration, I found a mistake you made quite early in the build. The cockpit floor insert should have been in my opinion glued flush with the fuselage parts, so that the two (possibly?) floor reinforcing  beams protrude from the fuselage underside, which is then even, without the depression. Please check the photographic references, though I am really curious why there are so few photos of the underside of something that more often than not flies above our heads.

 

I know it is by far too late for you to do something about it, and I apologize for spoiling your day eventually. I am posting it more as an advice for next builds/generations. I will be posting first photos of my own build later today.

 

 

 

 

[John Aero]

 

 

I may have a Hermes but my bottom is just the same.

John

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

9 hours ago, Patrik said:

Hi Moa,

started my Genet Moth parallel build just today, though I am sure I will never be able to catch up with your unparalleled building speed. When going through your build for inspiration, I found a mistake you made quite early in the build. The cockpit floor insert should have been in my opinion glued flush with the fuselage parts, so that the two (possibly?) floor reinforcing  beams protrude from the fuselage underside, which is then even, without the depression. Please check the photographic references, though I am really curious why there are so few photos of the underside of something that more often than not flies above our heads.

 

I know it is by far too late for you to do something about it, and I apologize for spoiling your day eventually. I am posting it more as an advice for next builds/generations. I will be posting first photos of my own build later today.

 

 

5 hours ago, John Aero said:

 

I may have a Hermes but my bottom is just the same.

John

 

When did I hear that phrase "Never trust a kit" before...?

The section of the floor that comes separate has a crossbar as part of it. The thickness of the part in general is insufficient to be flush with the rest of the fuselage floor (as I found out it should be thanks to you, which in turn curdled my breakfast), and the crossbar will impede the part to be located lower to match the rest the floor. Being as confessed at the very beginning an ignoramus on the type, I just glued the part in place as it fitted, failing -this one time for this detail- to check photos as I customarily do, if at all I have photos showing the belly, which I don't think I do.
 

 

But it's not too late as you express, I think, and I will get at it soon. The fit on some areas of this kit is challenging, to put it mildly.

I look forward to your build, Patrick (unless it is a military machine, in which case I will pass, as I always do):

 

 

 

 

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

That'll teach them.

The detail of those runners and what looks like a square lid in the middle will be added back from styrene bits after making tabula rasa with that floor:

[Patrik]

Great start of recovery.

Concerning my Genet Moth build. If half-red CFS single seater performing acrobatics at Hendon Pageant in 1927 fails under military label, then I will be really sorry to miss you in my audience. And you will be sorry to miss your fair chance to curdle my breakfast in return.😉

Patrik

Edited May 31, 2020 by Patrik

[John Aero]

Moa I think you mentioned G-AANL, in National Flying Services colours. Some from my Moth Rally visits.

 

John

 

 

 

 

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

2 minutes ago, John Aero said:

Moa I think you mentioned G-AANL, in National Flying Services colours. Some from my Moth Rally visits.

 

John

 

Splendid, John

Fortunately this one is well covered in the Net, so my friend got it easy.

Appreciate you posting them!

 

[fjaweijfopi4j48]

Bottoms leveled:

 

 

The part in question would have been better engineered as a insert from below, once the fuselage halves were united.

That way you could see where and how it sat.

The crossbar it had (quite uselessly) prevented that, forcing the modeler to glue it to one side before joining the fuselage halves.

Yet another opportunity for simplicity and practicality missed.

Notice that -for what I can see from other builders- it's not uncommon to have issues with that part.

 

[StephenCJ]

Nice repair job, Master.

[Andrew.S]

Really nice double build, my Puss Moth will nit be alone here. There are really beautiful machines
You do have my respect Sir - those A-models can be a real challenge!

[Dave Swindell]

20 hours ago, John Aero said:

I may have a Hermes but my bottom is just the same.

You can get a cream for that from the chemists, John!

[John Aero]

Cheers Dave 😬

 

The sharp eyed may have noticed that on G-EBWD there is a loop at the rear spar on the Stb lower wing root. This I suspect is the Pitot Static tube slack to allow for the wing folding. Note also this a/c has a Cirrus Hermes so the exhausts are on the oposite side to early Cirrus and Gipsy aeroplanes.  The little hatch gives access to the internal elevator Bellcrank and cable conections.

 

John