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Aussie Eight - Spitfire MkVIII, Bobby Gibbes April 1945


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8 hours ago, Bill Livingston said:

Maybe I will feel different in the morning, but at the moment I am a bit deflated. That Foliage Green just looks wrong... as does the Dark Sea Grey...

Bill, I would not worry. If it is, what it was, then all the better and adds interest. I think it's coming together extremely well. Ray 

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8 hours ago, Bill Livingston said:

They look right compared to contemporary photos and any artwork based on those photos... but perhaps not quite the same as a lot of the models of Grey Nurse squadron aircraft I have seen around... but all of them use just one grey and one green... so not totally accurate, but actually very pretty. Even the repainted warbird that flies around seems to be in just the one grey and one green... Perhaps everyone has already been through this and this tand thought they looked ugly... or almost worse... exactly what they are, planes patched up with the closest paint available to allow for a change of roundel and a change of codes... so they simplified it to look a little more attractive.

Well I think that looks great Bill. If I may be so bold, you're not trying to make it pretty, tempting though it is. That's what the repainted warbirds are (and yes, I know, modern paints to protect them). You're at the stage when a model often looks a bit dull and uninspiring. I think it will look great when you've got markings on her and the final clear coat.

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2 hours ago, Ray_W said:

Bill, I would not worry. If it is, what it was, then all the better and adds interest. I think it's coming together extremely well. Ray 

Thanks Ray. I think last night, after several hours of work and getting excited about how it would all look once the masking was removed, I was a little disappointed at the overall 'look' of the model, but, as Charlie pointed out, I'm at the stage when models do look 'a little dull and uninspiring' and he is right... I'm new to aircraft modelling and I keep forgetting the fact that between the paint going on and the final finish, the models do look very different to how they will finish. I have to keep telling myself that I'm at a similar stage as I would be with a four colour camouflage on a WW2 cruiser and they look terrible for months, before everything is pulled together in the final phase of building).

 

1 hour ago, Sanjuro said:

Have you read this article before?

Thanks... that was very helpful. I have Peter Malones book on the Australian MkVIII, one of the authors of this article, so most of the information was already to hand... but it confirms everything I knew, both in terms of the variability of the colours themselves, the general wear and tear, particularly in the tropical sun and the lack of any consistency. The colours I used fitted precisely with the suggestions/conclusions of the article, so if anything, I feel better... at least it's not 'wrong' even if it isnt as pretty as I hoped!

 

51 minutes ago, Johnson said:

That's what the repainted warbirds are

 

I know... and now I have had some sleep and looked at it again, all is well. I am going to double check the width of the white tailband as I think it is a touch small (I seem to have issues with bands - every time I do them, I measure accurately, mask accurately and they still end up being slightly wrong - my tribulations on my MkIX with the invasion stripes should have warned me about that...!).

 

 

I'm actually happy that I will be about as close as I could reasonably get with this particular model. I suppose I was hoping to get a pretty little model of a Grey Nurse that would look similar to some of the really nice models I had found on line, but with greater accuracy, meaning two greys and two greens as was the prototype. I had been so looking forward to doing this... ever since before I even knew of the group build on here... so it had been building and building in my imagination...

 

It really is the case that it looks better now, in the morning, than it did last night and I am happy with the variation, even down to the fact the original RAF camouflage is more faded and worn that the repainted areas in RAAF greys and greens. I will check the fuselage band and then do the white leading edges. I will be using Vallejo's Chipping Fluid on the leading edge bands, so when I 'chip' off the paint with a wet brush after the White is down, I'll get the original colour coming through. I suspect that  white leading edge will bring everything together a bit more... 

 

I think my problem was I was really looking forward to a nice, pretty, colourful little Spitfire to end this group build on, and in my head, I was hoping for a model that looked a lot like Chris Wauchops painting of his Grey Nurse in 1/32... but now I look at it again, his also has just one grey and one green... But he did A58-672, ZP*Y,  so either it was the only one in full original RAF greens and grey's, or is in Dark Sea Grey and Foliage Green and it just looks like Ocean Grey and Dark green... or there is a little 'artistic licence' applied to make it simpler and more attractive.

 

Either way, I think mine is more 'correct', although the variation in tones and so on means no-one will ever have a 'correct' one anyway...

 

I think I must have been just too tired and too hungry - and emotion got the better of me last night!

 

Thank you all, for the encouragement. Today will be a more positive day. I will try to get as much work as early as possible so I can get on with it later...

 

 

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 Bill, Just catching up; I wholeheartedly agree with Charlie and Ray and with your new view after sleeping!

 

I think the approach you are taking will capture the patchwork of colours and fading these Spits seemed to exhibit. There are some superb images on the Australian War Memorial website which illustrate this well.

 

I very much appreciated your explanation of Roundel  painting; that’s a real skill. That’s one to add to the ‘must learn this’ book!

 

Looking very good!

 

Steve

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2 hours ago, Steve 1602 said:

I very much appreciated your explanation of Roundel  painting; that’s a real skill. That’s one to add to the ‘must learn this’ book!

Thank you Steve, You will need to be a bit more careful than I was, there is no need to spin the Olfa P cutter round and round like I did. One spin should do it... and no need to cut all the way through the backing paper. One spin and it should be a much neater cut (I ended up with almost a spiral!). The other thing to be aware of is the Tamiya masking sheet is EXTREMELY tacky... you only have to touch it on the model somewhere and you lift it off the desk. I suspect its better to remove as much of the backing glue as you can... half a dozen 'stick's' on your modelling desk should do it. One final note. Don't forget to mask the hole the compass point makes in the mask! Otherwise you get a nice little dot, slap bang in the centre. As mine were going to get over sprayed anyway, it didn't bother me... but if I was doing it in anger, I would certainly remember to do that, too.

 

With the new Eduard MkI available soon, with all that lovely mixture of raised and indented rivet detail on the fuselage side, I will certainly be airbrushing the roundels... that additional extra fines on the Eduard kit couldn't possibly be lost under a decal... no matter how thin!

 

2 hours ago, Cookenbacher said:

It seems to me that you've got the contrast between the camo colours just right.

 

Thank you Cookie... I am feeling a little better now. And thank you for the comments about the build pictures. I used to love reading the detail of how people did things as I found them interesting and I like seeing how things turn out after following the trials and tribulations of real modelling. Videos on YouTube are fine, but they dont really give much of an idea of the difficulties involved sometimes and everything seems so fast due to the edit... Plus the bit you really want to know often isnt there... So as I like reading them, I have presumed that maybe someone else will, too. I really dont like the 'here's the box, and this is it finished' type threads as there's nothing to learn and half the fun of this... in fact the whole fun, is getting better and learning through experience and from fellow modellers. 

 

(Which is one of the reasons I love this Group Build... I have learned SO much from the guys on here, particularly Steve and Ray W, but many others too...).

 

Anyway, I managed to get work out of the way by mid afternoon so made a start o making this look a bit prettier. (😉)

 

The first thing I did was check the white tailband, because it looked thin and it was annoying me. Trouble is, I couldn't find dimensions for it anywhere. In the end, I realised that it started at the end of the hyphen on the serial number (A58-602) and ended hard up against the '0', on the port side, so I thought I know, I will measure the decal for the serial and work it out from there.

 

Genius...(for a change). So I measured it with my dividers.

 

It was exactly the right size...

 

I must have been in a seriously bad mood last night...

 

So, in a far better frame of mind, I set about doing some more work on it. First thing, was to airbrush the white leading edges. I spent quite a lot of time checking the shape of the ID leading edges and how far back they went and from where they started and ended... which meant poring over the Malone book that comes with the Aussie Eight set and the internet. Once I had worked that out I then proceeded to mask everything. 

 

I also wanted to chip the white paint away... no point having a weathered and worn camouflage and then have an immaculate white leading edge... so the first thing I did after masking was airbrush some Vallejo chipping varnish (thinned with water  - I haven't used it before, so I had to look that up, too).

 

Annoyingly, you cant see where you have sprayed.. I think they should tint it with something that dries clear... but I suppose thats tantamount to asking them to produce magic. Anyway, on it went and it dried really quickly...

 

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Masking was with Tamiya white tape for curves and some standard... getting the curved shape even on both sides, top and bottom, was a pain, but I persevered. Once the Chipping Medium had dried, not very long at all, I airbrushed over it...

 

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Sprayed white, which took a while... I wanted to put down quite a few light coats so I didnt get it too wet... nothing could be worse than a paint run under that length of highly visible white, contrasting against the dark camouflage it would be impossible to hide and mean a major re-spray. 

 

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I then sprayed the red for the gun port taped covers and the spinner and back plate. The back plate looks like it should be natural metal, despite the instructions and the artwork, but I will keep checking on that. Certainly the rear of the propellor roots are Red, and as they are moulded as one piece, I thought I may as well paint the whole thing red and then I can choose later whether to do some fiddly masking and spray it metal, or leave it as it is. 

 

I removed the masking, slightly apprehensively after last night - could I have got a paint run anywhere, is it all even? Anyway, it turned out OK...

 

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I haven't started to do the chipping yet... I think I will wait a little while until my confidence is a little higher... its the first time I had tried it, so not sure what it will be like. 

 

Obviously I had to put the propellor on again, just to see what it was like now... The prop isnt finished, I still need to paint on the yellow tips and I am considering a very thin line masked onto the leading edge of each blade to simulate the brass edging on the wooden props. I have noticed that almost all the Aussie Spits had no, or virtually no, paint on the prop leading edge... so I would imagine all that hard dust and small stones would have eroded the edges quite quickly... and there was no point in painting them back on. I think a mix of aluminium and brass will do a job... (although they are brass in real life, painting it as such wouldn't look in scale... so either silver, with a hint of brass, or just plain silver should do it) I just have to make sure I can mask a 0.5mm line  Anyway, here she is today and I am MUCH happier.

 

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There is a little bit of white overspray which is more noticeable in this picture than it is in real life, but thats easy to get off. I'll be doing a very fine buff filter later anyway, so in a way, it shows the potential effect. The most important thing though is its now looking prettier and much more in line with what I had envisaged.

 

With the decals on, especially that large shark mouth and the Grey Nurse script, I think it will look OK... especially once I get the washes and a little bit of weathering done. The differences in colour look much less glaring and they now look like its been over painted with 'not quite matching' colours... which is what it was of course...

 

Right, off to finish the propellor and then experiment with the chipping varnish and a damp paintbrush... If it works, I should have the base colours showing through where the white has worn off... I am aiming for something between these two pictures... (and happily, on this one I can see the metal spinner backplate is metal, even behind the propellor cuffs, so the masking won't need to be done, I can just airbrush the backplate as it is... that makes it easier!). 

 

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Thank you all for your continued support and encouragement... it really is most appreciated...

 

Right... food... again... I keep forgetting to eat!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bill Livingston
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Started the chipping... it takes ages, which surprised me... but it's OK so far. I think I will leave it at this level.

 

I also got rid of the white overspray... but that was always going to be easy.

 

 

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Here is a close up from the same position as the original pre-chipping photo in the above post...

 

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With a wash on this later I think it's going to look OK. And now I have got used to it, I really like the colour variations.

 

Right... I need to eat (I got distracted again...!)

 

Edited by Bill Livingston
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Could the difference in the spinner backplate be that it retained its earlier colour (sky?) when the front (easily detached) part was removed and painted red?

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2 hours ago, Johnson said:

Could the difference in the spinner backplate be that it retained its earlier colour (sky?) when the front (easily detached) part was removed and painted red?

I dont know to be honest Charlie, although all the documentation and all the references seem to point to 'silver', whatever that means. I doubt it would be bare metal... so it would be paint of some sort I would have thought, but I dont know. Perhaps someone who know his Spitfires... Aussie Spitfires in particular, could jump in?

 

EDIT: I just checked on the re-painted 'warbird' Spitfire thats flying around... That has a white backplate. Which sort of makes sense... annoying, because I painted a white undercoat on it so the red would be nice and pure so would look good once glossed. I could have left it...!  I may go back to that. It sort of fits the contemporary photos and would look good... But checking further, there are silver, white, yellow and of course a full sky spinner. The airlift I am building certainly has a lighter backplate. Silver is most often used, but I may do white... Lets see if anyone chimes in...

Edited by Bill Livingston
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Nice work Bill and it’s really coming together nicely.

 

That chipping is excellent and really looks the part. It doesn’t sound like it was that easy though - would you recommend it? Did you also just apply the chipping fluid to the white leading edge, or did you spray it a little more ‘freehand’? 
 

 

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29 minutes ago, Steve 1602 said:

Did you also just apply the chipping fluid to the white leading edge, or did you spray it a little more ‘freehand’? 

I masked the leading edge first, then sprayed on the chipping medium and then sprayed on the white...

 

I think if I was doing it again I would put more chipping medium on, probably two coats of it. I am not sure I put on enough (you cant see it) and I was perhaps a bit tentative.

 

It was certainly harder than I thought... when you watch people on line it looks so easy... in reality, you have to brush the surface for ages before the paint comes off. I think I just didn't do it correctly... but as I said, I have no previous experience, this was another first.

 

The effect looks really good though and yes, I would certainly use it again. It can only get easier with practice and it has brought the model from being clearly a 'model' to a much more believable little miniature... which is weird when it is still so far from finishing. Definitely worth experimenting with.

 

 

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I was hoping to get the propellor finished and the gloss coat on... but a frustrating day at work, followed by an (unintentional) snooze during the early evening conspired against me.

 

Still it meant I could double check my thoughts on the propellor colours. Obviously the undercoat red as it is at the moment is far too bright, and I was wondering what the spinner backplate should be, so I spend some considerable time working through my books and on line to do some further research.

 

To cut a lot story short, I have decided to do the spinner in a 'roundel red' a sort of dull red-brown colour with a oily steel backplate. It will look suitably subdued (it needs to be - even at night with the lights off the red on there at the moment could light up a room... 

 

So... Rudolph has to go (although to be fair, it was always just going to be an undercut so I could get a nice red on the main coat).

 

I have also decided that the propellor blades need quite a lot of weathering, so the leading edges will be airbrushed a very thin mix of brass and aluminium in as thin a line as I can mask and then sprayed with chipping medium and then worn back a little. Hopefully I will end up with all the rear edges of the chipping in a perfect line, but in a random pattern if that makes any sense. The blades themselves will be a problem, so they will be airbrushed with a black base and then highlighted with a marbling coat, followed by a thin rubber black mist coat... Hopefully I will end up with suitable weathered prop and spinner of approximately the right colours. The propellor on the model is clearly eye-catching, so I had better put some effort into it...

 

Here are some pictures I will use as reference. They are mostly desert Spitfires, but they have red propellors, and they are very much sun-bleached and weathered, so make a good reference I would think... (and they look cool... lets be fair...!🙂)

 

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I know tis is in black and white, but it is useful in that the spinner backplate looks silver/grey/metal and the backplate coplour extends to the cuffs around the blades... which is helpful, because that is how the eduard spinner is split... so a relatively easy paint job as there is no demarkation to mask. Its also interesting to see the weathering on the rest of the aircraft, the white leading edges are almost all worn away and the roundels are badly faded with the overpainting of the fuselage roundel in particular very soft. Its also possible to make out the difference in tone between the RAF Green thats so badly faded and the Foliage Green on the rear fuselage and the Ocean Grey on the nose and wings is also a different, less warm tone that the rear of the fuselage. What is particularly annoying is the aerial mounting appears to be dark against the RAF Dark Sea Grey and a similar tome to the red spinner... which means it is likely to be the natural bakelite that it originally ws... so it wasn't overpainted, or if it was, all the [aint has come off. Thats annoying. I left mine off for ages and then added it because every model I saw, and the warbird version, all had the mounting as grey. I should have listened to my inner voice. It should be the same red/brown as I painted the seat. Ah well.... next time.

 

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This looks like it was taken at Gabes in Tunisia... what is interesting is the colour of the roundel red... clearly a dull, brownish red...

 

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As opposed to this roundel red, which is much more 'orange' colour. But it cant be the filter or the way the red appears in the film, because the dark red on the codes is much closer to the 'roundel red' in the previous photo.... Then I realised thats because this is a South African Spitfires...  and they used orange in place of the red.

(This again appears to be Gabes, looking at the background...)

 

So the question remains, what colour was the red spinner...  Then I found this picture of the same aircraft...

 

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So the spinners were roundel red, but the red/brown RAF roundel red from this period in the war, and not a bright red, nor an 'orange-red' which I have seen on some models.

 

Here is a less bleached version and a direct comparision to the roundel red..

 

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Not a great photo, but you get what I mean... and then finally, a very well know photo, again from Gabes I would think... With a clear picture of a red roundel and a red propellor, both looking much the same to me...

 

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So... I am going to try and mix myself a colour similar to roundel red for my spinner... The red on the fin flash looks quite SAAF orange to me, but the roundel on the fuselage looks less orange and more roundel red... but either way, the spinner is clearly the same as the spinner in the in flight photo of WR*D, so whether this is South African or not, really doesnt matter. Its also interesting to see the seat in the foreground. The Interior green and the reddish brown seat colour itself are pretty good matches for what I have already used on those same parts, so I am happy with the colour values of the photo... 

 

Anyway, after all this faffing around, I'm happy with my spinner colour now... and in the end, thats all that matters. 

 

Its my fathers 94th birthday tomorrow, so I will take my son and visit him for the half an hour the care home allows under current restrictions... which means I can more or less take the whole day off work and perhaps even get the spinner done and painted by close of play and maybe even get the gloss varnish on the rest of the model...

 

I need to get on with it though... I have wasted most of today... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bill Livingston
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Thanks Steve.

 

He is 94, as I mentioned, but he looks nothing like it. He has been in a home for the past six months, which he didnt want to do but he really likes it.

 

He is actually quite a good looking man, even now... and dresses quite elegantly... and according to the nurses, all the women 'put on their lippy and dress up' whenever he is around... I mentioned it him a few weeks ago and he just shook his head and said "They are all so old, though..." I had to remind him that he was fifteen to twenty years older than some of them, and at least ten years older than most...

 

"yeah, I suppose so..." he said... not quite believing it..

 

😄

 

If I'm doing as well as he is when I'm 94, I will be more than pleased... 

 

He still has his sense of humour, too. Just before the lockdown we went to Duxford. He loves aircraft - and Spitfires in particular. At one point, I was taking a photo of him standing in front of one of Duxfords MkI's and a chap came up to me and said "Did he used to fly Spitfires?" Of course I said no, and that at 94, he would have been 14 during the Battle of Britain.

 

When he walked away my father said, "What did that chap want?" 

 

I replied, "He asked if you flew Spitfires during the war".

 

He said, so what did you say, and I said "No, you didnt fly until a few years afterwards"

 

He shook his head and said "You should have said yes... I could have charged him a few quid for my autograph...!"

 

Never misses a trick...😂

 

 

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Well, I mixed up a 'Roundel Red' from 75% Flat Red XF-7 and 25% NATO Brown XF-68 and I think it looks about right... It matches the photos pretty well, and more impotently, it looks the colour I wanted.

 

Obviously, I still have to do all the weathering on it, but it is a great starting point. The backplate in MrHobby Aluminium as that will matt down to the tone I want. I will be adding chipping and oil stains to the propellor boss, and a leading edge line of aluminium and brass on the blades that I can weather down to... but its a start (after not getting anything done for two days with family and work stuff taking my time).

 

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I'm not sure why its gone grainy... I might strip it back off if it doesn't sort itself out when the gloss coat goes on later... I used IPA rather than Levelling Thinner. IPA is OK on REALLY thin paint, but on a standard mix, Levelling Thinner is much better I've found... I'll see how it looks later. It looks much worse on here with artificial light than in 'real life'.

 

 

Its looking good with my other Spitfires (although I need to put them on their own display bases and photograph them all properly...).

 

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Edited by Bill Livingston
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I wasn't happy with the finish on the propellor hub, so stripped it all off and started again.

 

Not such a big deal... I have been really happy with my painting on this model and after taking some photos earlier I realised that was the first time on this model I didnt acheive what I wanted.

 

Anyway, to anyone normal, this will look just the same as the last post... But I feel better...!

 

(I'll get my straightjacket...)😄

 

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Obviously, the prop isnt all glued together yet... which is why the backplate isnt hard up against the propellor boss and it needs a final gloss varnish before decals and the weathering process starts, but that will now have to wait until tomorrow. I have another ten days to finish, so no issues... I was hoping to get another one in, but thats not going to happen (probably😉).

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Looking really good Bill! The picture with all three Spits does capture some of the variety in Spitfire camouflage - there’s certainly no chance of running out of schemes!

 

I’m looking forwards to seeing that shark mouth go on. 

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On 7/2/2020 at 10:55 PM, Steve 1602 said:

I’m looking forwards to seeing that shark mouth go on.

So am I... but its actually the Grey Nurse on the cockpit sides and the white stencilled squadron codes I'm really looking forward to. In fact, the whole decal set for this particular Spitfire... I have been looking forward to this one more than any other... so lets hope I do it justice.

 

And then I am going to do a desert camouflage... I quite fancy something with blue codes, just to make a real contrast (you can see my motivation - which will probably be a bit strange to others... especially those who knew me in my ship modelling days. I was far more concerned with the history... with these, I want to make a nice interesting and varied collection of finished Spitfire models.

Edited by Bill Livingston
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8 hours ago, Bill Livingston said:

 

And then I am going to do a desert camouflage... I quite fancy something with blue codes, just to make a real contrast (you can see my motivation - which will probably be a bit strange to others... especially those who knew me in my ship modelling days. I was far more concerned with the history... with these, I want to make a nice interesting and varied collection of finished Spitfire models.

One of the Polish Fighting Team Spitfires perhaps Bill?

 

I’m fully onboard with the same type different version/ schemes thing. They all look very good lined up - plus it does have the benefit of researching areas that are perhaps away from core interests - For example reading into various theatres of operations.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Steve 1602 said:

One of the Polish Fighting Team Spitfires perhaps Bill?

I was looking at one of them...👍

 

On a different note, while looking for pictures for you, on your thread, I found a load more colour photos of red spinners... and a video. And the red spinner is much more red than I changed to yesterday! Typical...

 

Basically, its next to impossible to get these things right. Especially from contemporary colour photos... I was tempted to change colour yet again, but I think I will leave it... this could go on forever! I now wish I had gone for a Grey Nurse Spitfire with a Sky spinner... It would have been easier!

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bill Livingston said:

 

 I found a load more colour photos of red spinners... and a video. And the red spinner is much more red than I changed to yesterday! Typical...

That’s always the way isn’t it! Thanks for the pics by the way 👍

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