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Hurricane Mk I P3150 airframe history


lasermonkey

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Hi,

    I'm collecting information for a project that I have wanted to  do for some time, namely the Hurricanes that the Woods-Scawen brothers were tragically lost in. Last week I finally chanced upon some possible codes for both aircraft- VY@Z for Patrick's P3150 and FT@B or FT@D for Anthony's V7420.*

 

Whilst V7420 was a relatively fresh airframe, P3150 was from a batch completed in April 1940 by Glosters. This means it would have the undersides repainted at some point in Sky (or substitute). It would be very helpful to know when No. 85 Sqn received the aircraft, as that might help to pin down a likely colour. Certainly one Hurricane carried an underside colour that was a match for BS381C No. 1 Sky Blue (the paint was seen on relics from the aircraft) so while that's a possibility, the date of its arrival and any previous "owners" would be really useful.

 

I've had a look online, but there's nothing like the sort of info you can find on Spitfires and my library is sadly lacking in Hurricane references. If anyone does have access to information and would be kind enough to look, I would be much obliged.

 

* The VY@Z code was suggested by the Cammfollowers page on Facebook (it came up in a search) and there's a painting by Barry Weekley included that shows the brothers' Hurricanes in formation, with V7420 shown as FT@B. Another reference (Aviation-safety.net) lists V7420 as FT@D and while it would be nice to know for sure, the two letters are similar enough to be easily adjusted if necessary.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

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I'm interested in this as I often try and model specific RAF WW2 aircraft and their squadron/aircraft codes. Am I right in assuming that there is no standard method for matching codes against serial numbers.

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1 hour ago, lasermonkey said:

Anthony's V7420

Not sure if you already knew this but according to Battle of Britain Now and Then (1989, p. 407) the complete surviving remains of this aircraft were recovered by the Brenzett Aeronautical Museum in 1977. Maybe they might have some extra info that could help you?

Edited by Pete F
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2 hours ago, lasermonkey said:

Certainly one Hurricane carried an underside colour that was a match for BS381C No. 1 Sky Blue (the paint was seen on relics from the aircraft

 

which one please?  I'd really like to know more on this

 

also there is a great Flickr that has most of all of the Life shots of 65 Sq taken at Castle Camps in July 1940 here

85 Squadron

showing the typical finish of 85 Sq at this time, and their 'sky' underside repaints, which were similar to the 17 Sq repaints,  as they were sharing bases,  both Squadrons appear in the images

17 sq here

17 Squadron

 

 

HTH

T

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Thanks @Troy Smith. I think I probably downloaded all those No. 17 & 85 Sqn photos from that FB site. Russian chap, wasn't it?

 

According to the BoB Camouflage & Markings monograph by Paul Lucas, V6581 of No 85 Sqn was lost on 31/08/40 and had  No.1 Sky Blue undersides. From what I can gather, the aircraft that had this colour tended to be in the East Anglian area. I think that Graham Boak has ascertained that the Eau-de-Nil finished aircraft tended to be from the North East, which suggests that it may have been a local supply thing. At least when they were repainted. I'd love to be able to track it down to specific MUs!

 

What's interesting about V6581 is that it was from the third Gloster-produced block, with supplies starting in July 1940. Since the order for Sky undersides came in June, is it possible that it was factory-finished in Sky Blue or was it done at an MU? In the same book, V7357 (a Hawker-built example) was lost on 17/09/40 and had Sky undersides. I wonder if anyone has examined more pieces of aircraft to check for colours. It would be nice to expand the data set.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

 

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The three examples discussed in the monograph were from squadrons based in South Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire in early June.  This suggests to me that if there is any credence to this colour then it is restricted to units in this area on June 6th 1940.  I've not seen the evidence for any of the other suggested options, nor for Eau-de-Nil existing in aircraft-standard paints.  Suggestions that Sky was hitherto unknown therefore supplies where short to non-existent fall foul of it having been seen on Blenheims for some months before this.

 

This said, Paul has documentary evidence that the main MU for RAF paints was unaware of the meaning of "Sky" and up until November was substituting another colour -  Unfortunately there is an error in the number given for this colour but Sky Blue would appear to be the most likely, as this would also fit the description "duck egg blue".  There are also anecdotal reports of various hues, so there is room for considerable discussion and disagreement! 

 

However, I would suggest that Paul went a bit overboard on "Eau de Nil" although some allowance may well be due for certain oddities.  It appears that the factories were quick to use Sky, and the (later) appearance of Sky Blue on tail bands and spinners highlights the supply to the MUs.   The MUs of course will have had a stock of fighters in the previous underside colours that would need repainting before issue.  I would first look to see when these aircraft were produced, and those built in July, for my money, will have been in Sky.

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Mark,

 

I have P3150 as Z as well but don't have the source right now, although I think it might come from Dilip Sarkar (possibly a photo) but I'll have to dig around in the man cave and find where it came from. It makes sense though, Patrick was B flight and 85 followed the most common letter breakdown so Z was a B flight machine. Annoyingly with 85 A flight listed operational flights by aircraft code letter but B flight listed them by serial.

 

In terms of Paul Lucas, what I found particularly interesting with his "The Battle for Britain" booklet was the photographs of surviving pieces of undersides from the period which plainly showed that there was a range of underside colours used from grey to various light greenish-blues of wide variance. I don't know enough about paint nor paint suppliers in 1940 to say that Lucas gets it right with his assertions of what the various colours are. But he does show that there were different underside colours being used. 

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17 minutes ago, Smithy said:

Mark,

 

I have P3150 as Z as well but don't have the source right now, although I think it might come from Dilip Sarkar (possibly a photo) but I'll have to dig around in the man cave and find where it came from. It makes sense though, Patrick was B flight and 85 followed the most common letter breakdown so Z was a B flight machine. Annoyingly with 85 A flight listed operational flights by aircraft code letter but B flight listed them by serial.

 

In terms of Paul Lucas, what I found particularly interesting with his "The Battle for Britain" booklet was the photographs of surviving pieces of undersides from the period which plainly showed that there was a range of underside colours used from grey to various light greenish-blues of wide variance. I don't know enough about paint nor paint suppliers in 1940 to say that Lucas gets it right with his assertions of what the various colours are. But he does show that there were different underside colours being used. 

Smithy, just checked the Sqn ORBs for 85 and 43 and as you say, A Flight quotes codes whereas B flight quotes serials. 43 also quotes serials. In case you aren’t aware the National Archive are allowing digital downloads for free during lockdown if you have an account, accounts are free to create. All RAF ORBs are digitised so are free to download. File refs AIR 27/703/19 and /20 cover 85 Sqn during Sep 40 and AIR 27/441/17 and /18 cover 43 Sqn in the same period. 

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1 minute ago, Dervish said:

Smithy, just checked the Sqn ORBs for 85 and 43 and as you say, A Flight quotes codes whereas B flight quotes serials. 43 also quotes serials. In case you aren’t aware the National Archive are allowing digital downloads for free during lockdown if you have an account, accounts are free to create. All RAF ORBs are digitised so are free to download. File refs AIR 27/703/19 and /20 cover 85 Sqn during Sep 40 and AIR 27/441/17 and /18 cover 43 Sqn in the same period. 

 

Thanks Dervish. Sadly the PRO/NA prised mucho moollah away from yours truly back in the day on all the squadrons I have an interest in.

 

If I hadn't I would be in like Flynn right now downloading as fast as my bandwith would allow!

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Actually they limit it to 50 "files" in a 30-day period, so if you have a broad interest in squadrons and time period you can use that up pretty easily!  You can also view online, though you have to read around the watermarks- not usually a problem for Summaries, but can be for Records.

 

According to Air Britain, P3150 only served with 85 Sqn.

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On ‎22‎/‎05‎/‎2020 at 20:46, lasermonkey said:

Hi,

    I'm collecting information for a project that I have wanted to  do for some time, namely the Hurricanes that the Woods-Scawen brothers were tragically lost in. Last week I finally chanced upon some possible codes for both aircraft- VY@Z for Patrick's P3150 and FT@B or FT@D for Anthony's V7420.*

 

Whilst V7420 was a relatively fresh airframe, P3150 was from a batch completed in April 1940 by Glosters.

P3150 RAF Delivery Logs entry, Taken on Charge 22 June 1940, 5 MU 25 June 1940, 85 Squadron 5 July 1940, SOC 8 September 1940.

 

P3150 was, in serial number order, the 421st Gloster built Hurricane, Official total Gloster Hurricane production was 304 to end May, 448 to end June 1940.

 

V7420 was a Hawker Brooklands build, ToC 11 August 1940, 19 MU 17 August 1940, 43 Squadron 24 August 1940, SOC 6 September 1940.

 

Geoffrey Sinclair

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