Pe-2 in PLAAF question

[Aardvark]

2 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

Serge I thought a squadron of La-15’s were evaluated in Manchuria. In fact there is a USAF combat report about an encounter with “high wing Migs” and also “straight wing Migs”. The straight wing Migs were thought to be Chinese Mig-9s encountered in 1954. The “high wing” Migs are thought to be La15s in evaluation. 

In Russian sources, as well as a funny curiosity, it is told about USAF reports which indicate red-haired mustache

Caucasians ( Uncle Joe was here! 😉😁)

and East German  as MiG pilots during the war in Korea seen in the cockpit during the dog fighting.

😉😁

But if You found any evidence the presence of La-15 in China, not to mention North Korea, it will be a sensation!

 

However, if we talk about the Korean War, the most interesting and unexplored moment is research in USSR of American and other western aircraft captured in Korea.

It is widely known about Sabre, but nothing is known about the research of F3D (or F-94B?) radars and their influence on Soviet developments.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[28ZComeback]

The PLAAF received a number of MiG-9s. According to the Sabrejet pilot they slaughtered the “straight wing Migs.” 

[Aardvark]

2 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

The PLAAF received a number of MiG-9s.

Not in dispute, because this true.

2 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

According to the Sabrejet pilot they slaughtered the “straight wing Migs.” 

I specially  translated this anecdote for that topic about the interception of the MiG-15 Swedish Spitfire, but it is suitable for this case:

 

"Vasily Ivanovich Chapaev* from England returned with a suitcase of currency.  - Vasily Ivanovich, but where is the money coming from?  “Yes, you see, I came to London.”  I went to some club of theirs.  Watch, play, I'm hooked.  We play in "Black jack", here is one man: "I have a 21."  I told him: "Show!"  And he: "We have all the gentlemen here, we believe each other's word!"  ...After that, good luck began to smile at me in this game...."

😁

Because, as correctly written @modelldoc

"The same, one sentence - no picture - true?

..........

Where is a picture?"

 

Because each flight is counted in the journal  of the military unit, the pilot’s flight book, if this flight was accompanied by a meeting or fight with the enemy, the rapport of the pilot is written about this, the ammunition spent during the battle is written off according to the documents, because the ammunition costs money!  If at the same time during the battle the plane received damage, then repair documents are drawn up in which the technicians indicate the causes of the damage, because repair is work and materials that cost money.

And I am afraid that any government , even capitalist, even socialist, always considers and checks how and what it has spent, government, money for, for such checks the Government  has specially trained people.

😉😁

Where all documents???

 

Therefore, without documents, all these words, these are just words!

 

And if there are documents, it may happen that the story can unfold 180 degrees, just like in this anecdote (again spesialy translate):

"- I heard you won a million in the lottery!  It's true?
 “Not really.”
 - What do you mean not really?
 - Well, firstly not a million, but a thousand.  Secondly, not to the lottery, but to the cards.  And in the third,  did not win, but lost..."

😁

 

But returned to "Pe-2 in PLAAF"?

 

I found mentioned about ""Pe-2 in PLAAF" on "Pe-2 in action".

But only text, no photo. 

 

B.R.

Serge

 

______________

* - the real commander of the Red Army who died in the Russian Civil War 1918-1922, but became a hero of anecdotes  because of the film of the same name.

 

[fernandocouto]

14 hours ago, Flankerman said:

Not in Beijing - we didn't have the time on a tight schedule.

 

But in Shanghai I met up with Yufei Mao - who very kindly came to our hotel and took me to a local hobby shop - which, unfortunately, was closed.

 

Ken

Mr. Mao is an expert on Russian jets, especially Flanker series. He is popular in Chinese modellers.

 

Hobby shops most turn to e-shops, cause there is less cost..

Mr. Mao is an expert on Russian jets, especially Flanker series. He is popular in Chinese modellers.

 

Hobby shops most turn to e-shops, cause there is less cost..

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by fernandocouto
text repeated

[Flankerman]

9 hours ago, Aardvark said:

Not in dispute, because this true.

 

Not sure if it is painted in the correct colours - but I photographed it in 2013 at the Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics

Museum...

 

Ken

[fernandocouto]

2 hours ago, Flankerman said:

 

Not sure if it is painted in the correct colours - but I photographed it in 2013 at the Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics

Museum...

 

Ken

"Sad" react not to your post, but this MiG-9..PLAAF fighters in 50s mostly have bare metal finishing, or silver paint coated. Never overall light blue.

Some sources indicated camo on MiG-9 or -15, but no photo evidence...

[Aardvark]

 

3 hours ago, Flankerman said:

Not sure if it is painted in the correct colours - but I photographed it in 2013 at the Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics

Museum...

Agree, I also not sure about

correct colours. 

But Chinese aviation will be a mystery until the Chinese themselves publish their official research in the West.

 

 

But let's continue about "Pe-2 in PLAAF"

In 2 part Russian monograph Medved & Khazanov about Pe-2 (with cooperation modeller's magazine "M-Hobby")

in China, only one line, “it’s known that the Pe-2s were also delivered to Yugoslavia and China, but nothing is known about their operation and use”, but a whole paragraph was devoted to the formation of the French bomber regiment "Bretagne"

(Brittany)

as part of the Soviet Air Force.

Of course I will look at the rest of the Russian literature about the Pe-2, but intuition tells me that there will be the same.

Probably, something may be in the Russian encyclopedia on aviation China -

Demin "Great Neighbor Aviation":

but my electronic scan this book on my not working computer.

 

 

A logical question, my interests are jet fighters, why do I interesting a Pe-2?  The fact is that for a long time I have been on the Pe-3bis model assembly for friend,

the fighter modification of the Pe-2, so I'm paralleling the selection of information about the Pe-3 (Pe-3 / Pe-3bis is where the real mystery is!) I look at the information about Pe-2 in PLAAF.

 

B.R.

Serge

Edited May 24, 2020 by Aardvark

[Aardvark]

.... continue to get acquainted with Russian literature on this issue ....

 

Evolution of the views of the same author in time....

 

"Diving bomber Pe-2"
 Author: V. Kotelnikov, O. Leiko
 Publisher: Moscov Aviation Institute
 Year of publication: 1993

 

"some Pe-2 exports to China"

 

"Diving bomber Pe-2 (Aviation collection 2019-09)"

Author: V. Kotelnikov

Publisher: Modelist-Konstruktor
 Year of publication: september 2019

 

"Not found official documents about export Pe-2 to China"

 

....which V.Kotelnikov to believe? 🤔 "V.Kotelnikov 1993" or "V.Kotelnikov 2019"?  😁 But so far, "V.Kotelnikov 2019" is the only one who wrote that no official documents were found on Pe-2 shipments to China. 🤗

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[AaCee26]

Hi all,

 

There is a Chinese four-part book series "Encyclopedia of Chinese Aircraft" which unfortunately has only the title in English and plane types in Western alphabets. There is no Pe-2 nor Yak-9 included in it.

 

Peking University Museum MiG-9 was earlier painted in camouflage when it was presented outdoors. Maybe during the museum renovation it was painted quite careless overall blue.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

[Aardvark]

4 hours ago, AaCee26 said:

There is a Chinese four-part book series "Encyclopedia of Chinese Aircraft" which unfortunately has only the title in English and plane types in Western alphabets. There is no Pe-2 nor Yak-9 included in it.

????

😉😁😁

 

4 hours ago, AaCee26 said:

Peking University Museum MiG-9 was earlier painted in camouflage when it was presented outdoors. Maybe during the museum renovation it was painted quite careless overall blue.

It's strange, because all Soviet AF MiG-9 was overall grey. MiG-9 were not very long in service in order to repaint them.

I think all camouflage MiG-9 it's museum art ..... but....but have mysterious Soviet Naval MiG-9 from Far East! 

According to textual recollections, they had not only not a standard dark color, but also unguided rockets under the wing.  No photo of these MiG-9s has yet been found.  Perhaps these Soviet Naval MiG-9s could be camouflaged and in this form could go to China.  But this is just my guess.

 

 

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

P.S.

4 hours ago, AaCee26 said:

Chinese four-part book series "Encyclopedia of Chinese Aircraft"

Skeptics will require verification of this book in the ultraviolet and infrared spectra !!!  Suddenly, the text about the presence of Pe-2 in China is printed with ultraviolet ink or watermarks?

😉😁😁

[Graham Boak]

There are other pictures of Chinese museum Lavochkins in a paler blue, which may  just be the same paint faded from outside exposure.  I did wonder if this was the true colour of postwar Russian fighters which appear as pale grey in b&w photos, but as far as I know this isn't the case.

 

Some people, of course, will believe anything about the Chinese (government, at least) as long as it's bad.  Very trendy nowadays.

[AaCee26]

3 hours ago, Aardvark said:

It's strange, because all Soviet AF MiG-9 was overall grey. MiG-9 were not very long in service in order to repaint them.

I think all camouflage MiG-9 it's museum art ..... but....but have mysterious Soviet Naval MiG-9 from Far East!

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

There are other pictures of Chinese museum Lavochkins in a paler blue, which may  just be the same paint faded from outside exposure.  I did wonder if this was the true colour of postwar Russian fighters which appear as pale grey in b&w photos, but as far as I know this isn't the case.

 

Hi all,

 

I'm sceptic about the Chinese museum colours. In the University museum is a La-11 with light grey top and bright green (!) belly. Xiaotangshan China Aviation museum is better with La-11 with bluish grey top and light blue bottom. Their MiG-9 is bluish grey overall.

 

3 hours ago, Aardvark said:

Skeptics will require verification of this book in the ultraviolet and infrared spectra !!!  Suddenly, the text about the presence of Pe-2 in China is printed with ultraviolet ink or watermarks?

😉😁😁

You are welcome to do that! For me it is enought that the publisher is maybe the largest Chinese aviation publishing house and author is an established researcher there.

 

Nothing politics in my views. I'm just curious to know more about the subject.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

[28ZComeback]

From Bob Dorr’s book, “F-86 Sabre”, on page 138-139: “Lt. James McInerney 35th FBS/8th FBW on 10 May 1955.  Having redeployed from K-13 Suwon AB in September 1954, the squadron was now operating out of K-8 Kunsan AB conducting the coastal patrols provided for in the truce agreement.  “Our mission,” McInerney remembers, “was to fly up the west coast of Korea, make a left hand procedural turn at the Manchurian border, and turn south. We had eight F-86s. Twelve MiG-15s were flying to the right of us paralleling our course about 5,000.  I don’t know where the Migs came from. Radar tracked 92 Migs at one time or another during the action. Some were taking off Sinuiju. The Migs rolled in at the most opportune time for us and the worst time for them. We’d started our turn. All we needed to do was tighten up the turn.  Our worst problem was drop tanks flying off when their intentions became known to us.  As I tightened up, hanging in with Dawson, a couple of guys overshot. My wingman Hal Pederaon overshot. We reversed. I started plinking the guy. Flashes came out of the left wing root and he started training dark smoke.”

 

It was to turn out, on later count, that McInerney fired 896 rounds at the Mig-15. “We chased him up north. We had picked up some lore that was called the right of hot pursuit.”  In this tense, postwar period, once fired upon American fighter pilots were free to carry the fight across any border that might get in their way.  In the middle of the melee—McInerney chasing and firing at a Mig-15—a flight of straight-wing Migs, apparently MiG-9a, flew by the Sabres in trail. “They crossed a T in front of us.  Pete called, “MiG at 12 high.”  It was their flight leader. I saw a straight wing Mig coming straight down on us with cannon flashes. He did a barrell roll around us and went under, Pederason broke off.” 

Edited May 28, 2020 by 28ZComeback

[Flankerman]

On 5/25/2020 at 8:45 PM, AaCee26 said:

In the University museum is a La-11 with light grey top and bright green (!) belly.

 

 

Xiaotangshan......

 

 

 

They also have a very rare UTI La-9.......

 

 

Re the MiG-9....... on both my visits to Xiaotangshan (2010 & 2013) I never saw a MiG-9 - HOWEVER - I did purchase a hardback book 'Aircraft Treasures of China'

and on page 62 there is a colour photo of a MiG-9 inside the 'cavern'.

 

It is painted in green upper surfaces with light grey undersurfaces and coded 'white 30'

 

Ken

[AaCee26]

Hi Ken,

 

Xiaotangshan MiG-9 has been repainted sometime before 2012, when I visited there, Earlier it was in green/blue camouflage as in your book as well as it can be seen for example in Airliners.net pictures. I didn't see the La-9UTI and some other planes as one of the hangars was closed then.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee 

[Aardvark]

On 5/28/2020 at 4:35 AM, 28ZComeback said:

He did a barrell roll around us and went under, Pederason broke off.” 

But how?

MiG-9

Performance

Maximum speed: 864 km/h (537 mph, 467 kn) at sea level

Maximum speed: Mach 0.7

910 km/h (570 mph; 490 kn) at 4,500 m (14,764 ft) Mach 0.74

Never exceed speed: 1,050 km/h (650 mph, 570 kn) / Mach 0.85

 

F-86 Performance

Maximum speed: 687 mph (1,106 km/h, 597 kn) at sea level at 14,212 lb (6,446 kg) combat weight

678 mph (589 kn; 1,091 km/h) / M1.02

599 mph (521 kn; 964 km/h) at 35,000 ft (10,668 m) at 15,352 lb (6,964 kg) at sea level

597 mph (519 kn; 961 km/h) at 21,148 ft (6,446 m)

597 mph (519 kn; 961 km/h) at 21,148 ft (6,446 m)

599 mph (521 kn; 964 km/h) at 22,835 ft (6,960 m)

 

.....how???

 

F-86 have superiority over the MiG-9 in the entire range of heights?  How could the MiG-9 get away from the F-86?

On 5/28/2020 at 4:35 AM, 28ZComeback said:

Lt. James McInerney 35th FBS/8th FBW on 10 May 1955.  Having redeployed from K-13 Suwon AB in September 1954, the squadron was now operating out of K-8 Kunsan AB conducting the coastal patrols provided for in the truce agreement

1954? 1955? 

...hot phase Korean war ended in 1953, no?

 

 

......no comment, just classic Russian art:

Vasily Perov
 "Hunters on a halt."  1871

😁😁

 

B.R.

Serge

Edited May 29, 2020 by Aardvark

[28ZComeback]

Serge the Korean War never ended. The cease fire has been violated numerous times. It would not be unheard of for MiG-9s from PLAAF volunteers to temporary station out of North Korea. Straight wing Mig could be MiG-9 or possibly misidentified MiG-15. 

[Aardvark]

5 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

Serge the Korean War never ended.

Ofcource, therefore I write 

6 hours ago, Aardvark said:

hot phase

because this incidents:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_House_raid

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_(AGER-2)

e.t.c.  says: "Nothing is over!".

But this only incident's, not a full scale war.

5 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

It would not be unheard of for MiG-9s from PLAAF volunteers to temporary station out of North Korea. Straight wing Mig could be MiG-9 or possibly misidentified MiG-15. 

I think it's possibly misidentified MiG-15, because for 1955 year even

MiG-15 was obsolete type for Soviet AF, for PLAAF 

China Wikipedia writes the following:

https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/米格-9戰鬥機

"As the air forces of the Republic of China continued to deliver air strikes against Shanghai and other cities in mainland China, the Soviet air forces sent four MiG-9 divisions* to a station in Shanghai since November 1950.  Cities like Beijing and Guangzhou, but soon replaced by the MiG-15, all MiG-9 aircraft were transferred to the PLAAF in 1951.

 However, due to the short flight, this aircraft was used mainly for training pilots familiar with the operation of jet fighters, and the PLAAF used it until 1956."

What can I interpret as a "MiG-9 training fighter in PLAAF".

Therefore, the whole story for me looks as if someone from the luftwaffe in his memoirs published after the war would write something like:

"when in 1945 I flew over Berlin on my Ta-152H, I was attacked by a single I-16 type 29"!

😁😁😁

 

B.R.

Serge

 

______________

* - absolutely unknown page in MiG-9 history for me!

Edited May 29, 2020 by Aardvark

[28ZComeback]

Serge: some documented examples of SSR planes encountered in the Korean War: 

 

Po-2 (1928)

Tu-2  (1942)

Yak-9.U (1945) 

La-9. (1946) 

MBR-2 (1938)

A-20 Havoc (1940) 
Il-10 (1945) 
 

My point is that the PLAAF and NKAF did not throw planes away as we do in the west.  They threw them into battle. It’s not unthinkable that a class of NKAF flying Mig-9s In 1955 got caught by a group of Sabre’s near the Manchurian border.

 Sabre pilot James McInerney was an eagle-eyed pilot and no joke. He also saw the gun camera film.  He has never changed his story, and the author, Bob Dorr, was one of the most notable and thoughtful intelligence professionals serving in Korea. I trust them both. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/james-e-mcinerney-jr-major-general-who-received-the-air-force-cross-dies-at-84/2014/11/02/5084b0aa-6124-11e4-9f3a-7e28799e0549_story.html

Edited May 30, 2020 by 28ZComeback

[modelldoc]

BTW, No Kum Sok never talked about Pe-2 and MiG-9 in his memories.

 

modelldoc

[28ZComeback]

Ken only mentions the MiG-15, Yak-17UTI and Yak-11. He was active 1952-1953. 

[Aardvark]

16 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

Serge: some documented examples of SSR planes encountered in the Korean War: 

 

Po-2 (1928)

Tu-2  (1942)

Yak-9.U (1945) 

La-9. (1946) 

MBR-2 (1938)

A-20 Havoc (1940) 
Il-10 (1945) 

In WW2 fighting on Soviet side

I-5 (1929)

SB (1934)

e.t.c. but this absolutely does not mean that these planes fought in the first line until the end of the 2WW.

17 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

 Sabre pilot James McInerney was an eagle-eyed pilot 

Perhaps in the Western countries they take blind people for flying on a fighter, but for the USSR Air Force the pilot should have had 100% vision.  By the way, that’s why I had no chance of becoming a fighter pilot.

Therefore the phrase about

"eagle-eyed" it makes me some associations with propaganda cliches.

Maybe we can do without them in the discussion?

17 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

He also saw the gun camera film.

Excellent! 

So we can see these shoot from gun camera, and the Aardvark will be disgraced!

😁😁

Where is the photo?

17 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

He has never changed his story

And what did he have to write, that they attacked the Chinese without reason, shot down one of them, and then go to the tribunal?

17 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

Bob Dorr, was one of the most notable and thoughtful intelligence professionals serving in Korea

"Overall, Dorr's 60-year career of writing about the Air Force and aviation included about 80 books. His best seller, at about 100,000 copies, was "Desert Shield: The Build-Up: The Complete Story," published in 1991, he said. His worst seller, at about 400 copies, was a later book about Army history.

Dorr also wrote about 6,000 magazine articles and 2,000 newspaper columns."

 

80/60=1,3 book in the year.... 

6,000/60=100 magazine articles in the year....

2,000/60=33,33newspaper columns in the year....

+ detective novels....

that is, on average, this author did in a year 1,3 book+100 magazine articles+33,33 newspaper columns....Seriously?  Should I seriously consider this author an authoritative researcher?

 

However, I do not comment on the fact that he was an employee of the US State Department.

 

O.K. leave statistics and the US Department of State alone....can i see:

- shoot from gun camera;

- description of this battle from Chinese sources?

- Chinese

 documents confirming the downing or damage of the MiG-9?

 

No?

Then this story for me  from cycle:

On 5/24/2020 at 1:46 AM, Aardvark said:

: "We have all the gentlemen here, we believe each other's word!" 

and

On 5/29/2020 at 8:42 PM, Aardvark said:

Vasily Perov
 "Hunters on a halt."

 

B.R.

Serge