Very early underside color on desert/Greece Blenheims

[tonyot]

5 hours ago, stever219 said:

Alternatively, given the low-ish contrast between the two main camouflage colours was she finished in Dark Earth and Light Earth?  I know we have the colour photo of a wrecked Blenheim that appears to be in Dark Earth and Middle Stone but there is something about it that makes me think that this is a colourised black ‘n’ white image (look at the area beyond the tree to the right).

Thanks @tonyot I’m going to try the 211 Squadron ORB page👍.

 

People often jump to this conclusion when they see a photo of an aeroplane finished in the Temperate Land Scheme without taking consideration of the bright lighting conditions found in the Middle and Far East regions,....... personally I think that it is just the bright sunlight bouncing down onto the aircraft,..... just check out the location and darkness of the shadow, then there are the cliffs adding side light too. The bottom area of the rudder just looks dirty to me, with mud and dust thrown up from the tail wheel. 

Cheers

         Tony 

[tonyot]

11 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

Hi Tony,

I'm sorry, I remembered the picture and also a discussion on the mud streaks on the lower fuselage, but I didn't recall it came from your post. I agree there's plenty of choice for modelling a Blenheim in Greece/Crete. Your choice of a 30 Sqn. Mk. IF is one that I like particularly.

 

You are right that we cannot tell 11 Sqn from 21 Sqn from the code alone. I suggested 11 Sqn. because it operated from Greek airfields in early 1941 (with Mk. IVs, I believe), but I assume a Blenheim had the range to reach Greece from Malta as well.

Just a guess at the desert-finished Blenheim. Considering squadron codes of Blenheim units in Greece (84-VA, 211-UQ, 11-YH, 113-AD) there's no way one can fit two letters with wide horizontal tracts at the top. Might we think it came from 45 Sqn. (OB)? Perhaps transferred to another squadron and not recodede/refinished? Just fancy.

 

All the best

Claudio

 

 

Hiya Claudio,.... I`ve found that almost anything is possible and not to write anything off mate! There is no individual aircraft letter either,....... it is highly possible that some of the desert based units had to provide replacement aircraft and crews for service with the Greece based units. 

Yeah the Malta based Blenheim`s operated in Greek waters quite a lot against Axis convoys,....and so did the night flying Swordfish too, with the addition of long range tanks. 

All the best my friend,

                                   Tony

[Tomas Enerdal]

Dear All,

First of all, thanks for all the responses and help! As usual I have learnt, and got inspired a lot.

After some searching I have found this pic at IWM, shown earlier, but much smaller, by Tony in this tread:

(an even better resolution can be seen at the IWM page, here )

 

Look at that car in the background, seems identical with the one in my first post. The photographer in all three pics is the same, H Hensser. The pic’s no is CM292, the ones in my first post is CM288 and CM290. I wonder if there are more in the same series at IWM? How does one find out? (I haven’t learnt how to make specific searches at the IWM’s page)

The pic’s caption is interesting, stating that it shows Bish’s return from Corfu where he was forced to land due to flak damage on November 24th 1940. According to a reference (Wings over Olympus, Wisdom) he returned a week later, i.e. around December 1st.

 

L6670 later became the plane of choice for the Squadron CO.

 

Note also the DTD stenciling on the wing leading edge! Indicating that it was done in some proper paint shop, not in the field.

 

I did also find the proper Paul Lucas Colour Conundrums in Scale Aircraft Modelling;

-May 2016/vol38 no 3 for ME Blue

-June 2016/vol38 no 4 for Middle East confusion

Early Middle East colours are discussed in detail, well worth looking up.

 

So my UQ L6670 will end up in Dark Earth/Light Earth uppers with ME Blue unders.

My interpretation of ME Blue will be RAF Azure lightened with some warmer Light blue (I will use 35622) I will possibly add a little Dark Sea gray to tone it down a little, and to get it just a tad darker than the Light Earth. Looking above on the nose and at the 2nd pic in my first post, close to the fuselage roundel, on can see that the underside colour is a little darker than the lighter upper colour.

 

Tomas

 

Note1; Parts for the Vokes sand filter is included in the kit, part no 17, 23 & 24.

Note 2: One of the marking alternatives in the next Airfix 1/48 Blenheim is 211 Sq. UQ-D as illustrated/discussed in the tread above.

Note 3: The Mk.IX bomb sight can be seen protruding from the bottom glazing in the pic above. It is not included in the Blenheim If kit, but a very nice resin one is made by Neomega/Vector, see here.

[ClaudioN]

21 hours ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

The pic’s no is CM292, the ones in my first post is CM288 and CM290. I wonder if there are more in the same series at IWM? How does one find out? (I haven’t learnt how to make specific searches at the IWM’s page)

Just try typing numbers around those your already know for the search. If there's something, it usually shows. For instance, I tried CM291 and it exists, but is not available on line.

[Graham Boak]

Something to look for is an additional air intake at the top of the nacelle, abutting the cooling gills.  This was added as part of a tropicalistion kit, and isn't seen on early examples.  I believe it would have been visible if present, on the photo  in post 28

[woody37]

The rudder is deflected, the shadow from the fin in front demonstrates this well so I suspect the colour difference is lighting. The lower part of the fin may be dirtier due to dirt / weathering from take offs

[85sqn]

2 hours ago, woody37 said:

The rudder is deflected, the shadow from the fin in front demonstrates this well so I suspect the colour difference is lighting. The lower part of the fin may be dirtier due to dirt / weathering from take offs

If you mean UQ-D at Paramythia I thought the same and rudder is slightly deflected. However, this is probably midday or close to it. The picture looks East and the aircraft is looking South. Judging by shadows I would say that this is around midday or a little after. I am not so sure that there would be so much of a difference.... I'm not sure and the desert painted rudder is entirely plausible given the nature and location of ops and that the squadron has a mix of colour schemes.

[tonyot]

On 5/23/2020 at 7:38 AM, 85sqn said:

I can't really offer much to this thread but I have been working my way slowly through the Airfix Blenheim. I've intention of it being the 211 Sqn UQ-D from above as I have stood in same spot in that valley and it really is very pleasant. I am none the wiser with which serial number the aircraft could be but it's not the end of the world as it is covered in mud. 

 

I agree with TLS with maybe a mid-stone/Dark Earth rudder?  As for the undersides, maybe black or maybe blue. I'm not sure.

 

Hiya Nick,...... I posted a larger pic of Blenheim UQ-D in the thread below,...... and I reckon that the rudder is faded DE/DG,....remember that it is fabric and the rest is metal,....  so dopes and paints etc, PLUS it matches the normal DE/DG pattern too,..but does look like it came from another aircraft judging by the pattern on the rest of the aorcraft. If it were Mid Stone/DE, then the central dark patch would actually be the lighter colour with MS replacing D/G, check out pics of other Blenheim`s, plus the restored one at Duxford, it has a rudder in DE/DG. I reckon that the serial could be L8376 too; 

There is also a decent article from Flypast here if interested;

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Blenheim/RAF-211Sqn-UQ.html

 

Here is the Duxford Blenheim, note the rudder colours;

 

Cheers

           Tony

Edited May 31, 2020 by tonyot

[85sqn]

Hi Tony,

 

Thanks for that. L8376 is the subject of Airfix's next Blenheim release: https://www.airfix.com/uk-en/bristol-blenheim-mk-1.html

 

 As soon as I saw that I looked it up as theirs is in DE/MS. L8376 was lost on the 4th Sep 1940. Have a look on this page from Chris Shores book: 

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=98SIDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT80&lpg=PT80&dq=l8376+blenheim+211+sqn&source=bl&ots=IHgQnlL1SP&sig=ACfU3U2S2nfeniTpxSjMX4fxGOFoEZUuLQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjUqtON6d7pAhWRFcAKHadmCvEQ6AEwEHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=l8376 blenheim 211 sqn&f=false

 

So unfortunately it is a different a/c.

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Your link gives us the entire book.  May Chris forgive you.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Graham Boak

[85sqn]

4 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Your link gives us the entire book.  May Chris forgive you.

That's interesting as it gives me a selection of pages and the option to purchase the ebook through Google!  That was through Googling 'L8376 211 Sqn Blenheim'

 

Will remove the link as necessary.

 

Nick

[Super Aereo]

It's just Google's book preview, they never show entire books

[Graham Boak]

ok, it took me into the middle of the book, and I scrolled it up a long way before reaching the title page, so it did seem a reasonable statement.  I've just gone in again and scrolled a long way down before finding a statement that some pages have been omitted from this review.  It could then be scrolled further down before I gave up,  So it may not be the entire book, but seems rather a lot for a review.

 

I didn't find the photo, but I do own the book, so if you can tell me which page it was on - but it didn't give page numbers, did it?  Ah the glories of the internet and its superiority over old fashioned print.

[85sqn]

It didn't give page numbers- try the same google phrase I typed or look up 4th September 1940.

 

Nick

[tonyot]

19 hours ago, 85sqn said:

Hi Tony,

 

Thanks for that. L8376 is the subject of Airfix's next Blenheim release: https://www.airfix.com/uk-en/bristol-blenheim-mk-1.html

 

 As soon as I saw that I looked it up as theirs is in DE/MS. L8376 was lost on the 4th Sep 1940. Have a look on this page from Chris Shores book: 

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=98SIDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT80&lpg=PT80&dq=l8376+blenheim+211+sqn&source=bl&ots=IHgQnlL1SP&sig=ACfU3U2S2nfeniTpxSjMX4fxGOFoEZUuLQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjUqtON6d7pAhWRFcAKHadmCvEQ6AEwEHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=l8376 blenheim 211 sqn&f=false

 

So unfortunately it is a different a/c.

 

 

No worries mate,.... it is definitely a strange one,..... the tonal shades look DE/DG,...and the rudder pattern is in this pattern,..... but the rest of the aircraft appears to have the colours reversed,..... as you would find on a desert painted aircraft!! One explanation for the lighter colour at the top of the rudder could be when the pre war serial was overpainted, they often sprayed the entire camouflage section,...... and maybe used a lighter mix?

Who knows mate?

Cheers

           Tony

[85sqn]

Cheers Tony all good points. If you were doing that a/c what colour would you do the underside?

[tonyot]

54 minutes ago, 85sqn said:

Cheers Tony all good points. If you were doing that a/c what colour would you do the underside?

Oh crikey,..... first of all I`d have to study lots of photos to determine if it was DE & DG or desert camo,...... I`m still up in the air with that one. If DE/DG,...probably Sky,....if desert them a light Azure Blue,...but the lower right engine cowling appears to be in its original black. There is a roundel visible under the wing too.

My `instinct' says DE/DG/ Sky,..... with a lighter colour for the upper section of camo on the fin where the serial has been painted out,.... and with MSG or even light blue codes,.... but I`m saying that it is instinct only and I would have to research the camo patterns etc much more first to find a match. The fin doesn`t match the rest of the aircraft pattern,.....pointing at a replacement,....or it being left unpainted if a repaint took place. 

Hope that makes sense?

          Cheers

                    Tony 

[Tomas Enerdal]

When looking in the early Blenheim Camouflage & Markings 7 (Ducimus) and others, A & B patterns are mentioned. The B pattern is a mirror image of the A pattern, but the colours are not transposed.

UQ-D is painted in the A pattern (as is Duxford's L6739 in post #32 above) . Now, the patterns darker colour in the pic of UQ-D is the A patterns Dark Earth, indicating that the green has been repainted with either Light Earth (probably) or Mid Stone (possibly). Can the low contrast between the color be simply because the plane is worn and dirty? Or is UQ-D still in DG & DE with the colours transposed? That could lead to the pattern being a (rare) example of the "C" pattern. I have not studied Blenheims patterns enough yet to know if Blenheims were painted in C and D patterns.

The rudder is interesting, it is also painted in the A pattern, but the darker color of the rudder is here the A patterns Dark Green, indicating that it is a replacement rudder. Either in A pattern with DG/DE or C pattern with "desert colours" DE/LE. The fresher colours of the rudder indicating fresher paint or fall of light, or both.

 

That mountain in the background is bordering the "Valley of Fairy Tales" at Paramythia allright, dating the pic to Feb-April '41.

 

The starboard wing underside is light, with an A roundel near the tip. Agree, the starboard engine underside of the cowling looks dark in the pic above. Other pics were taken at the same time, however. One such pic is shown in Blenheims over Greece and Crete 1940-1941/Brian Cull. in that pic the underside of the starboard engine cowling is as light as the engine gondola behind it.

My guess is ME blue undersides. Surviving SAAF samples indicating either FS35190 or FS35450. (My own recipe is suggested in post #28 above.)

 

A pity that Airfix is suggesting red for the Squadron codes in their forthcoming kit. My guess is Medium Sea Gray. Replacements do exist in 1/72 and 1/48, however

Edited June 2, 2020 by Tomas Enerdal

[Tomas Enerdal]

Another pic of L6670/UQ ?:

 and arm 

(Higher resolution on IWM page here.)

 

IWM Pic no CM 285, again taken by H Hensser. Note stenciling near (open) escape hatch and arm of someone standing on the wing at right.

How inspiring and informative such pics are, gun mount details, stenciling, amount of overspray between colours and the dirt/dust on the surface. The proper stenciling indicates a repaint at a MU, no hasty field repaint at unit level.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Tomas Enerdal

[28ZComeback]

Aside from the azure blue underside, is this profile an accurate depiction of a 211 squadron Blenheim L6670 in Greece 1941? Thank you for your comments. 

[Weatherman]

On 5/23/2020 at 2:59 PM, stever219 said:

I’ve just had another look at the image of UQ:D and the rudder may be in three colours.  Assuming that the aeroplane retains the Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Earth and Dark Green the top part of the rudder appears to be in a lighter colour than Dark Earth on the remainder of the airframe.  The lower quarter or so of the rudder appears to be in Dark Earth; it’s not shaded by the tailplane and elevator and it’s catching the sunlight at the same angle as the top half, which appears markedly lighter.

Alternatively, given the low-ish contrast between the two main camouflage colours was she finished in Dark Earth and Light Earth?  I know we have the colour photo of a wrecked Blenheim that appears to be in Dark Earth and Middle Stone but there is something about it that makes me think that this is a colourised black ‘n’ white image (look at the area beyond the tree to the right).

Thanks @tonyot I’m going to try the 211 Squadron ORB page👍.

 

 

Hello everyone. Searching here and there I discovered the present thread. Indeed, discussion regarding the camo of the depicted UQ-D aircraft has been done here, some years ago when I was writing the book of Paramythia airfield history. The matter is that no one (?) - among them, me as well - ever thought that the rudder may simply have come from another aircraft as a replacement and had a different colour? There are no tricks with the sun here, the mountains are east, the aircraft looks south, it is late February-mid March 1941 (as a friend very correctly mentioned above). The rudder is slightly turned starboard and lightened by the sun, but has no connection to the overal camo colour and worn status. I have seen and studied plenty of Blen's photos during the campaing of Greece, so this one is most possibly a foreign rudder (as also a foreign straboard engine cowling undeside panel, which is black). Remember that during this very intense campaign during late 1940 early 1941, the dispersals in Greece were quite difficult to find, so modulations and exchanges among aircraft were very common.

[85sqn]

Hiya folks,

 

I’d just like to revisit this thread. I’ve found another photo of the aircraft and it might confirm or deny what you think about the rudder colours.

 

scroll down on this page: http://www.211squadron.org/across_the_styx.html

 

the rudder is quite strong compared to the rest of the camo. I’m going to get this aircraft back out of the stash soon. It’s almost ready for paint and I’m leaning towards. Dark Earth and Dark Green, rudder in Mid stone and dark earth. Black underside starboard engine cowling and possibly sky or azure undersides.

 

 

[tempestfan]

8 hours ago, 85sqn said:

Hiya folks,

 

I’d just like to revisit this thread. I’ve found another photo of the aircraft and it might confirm or deny what you think about the rudder colours.

 

scroll down on this page: http://www.211squadron.org/across_the_styx.html

 

the rudder is quite strong compared to the rest of the camo. I’m going to get this aircraft back out of the stash soon. It’s almost ready for paint and I’m leaning towards. Dark Earth and Dark Green, rudder in Mid stone and dark earth. Black underside starboard engine cowling and possibly sky or azure undersides.

 

 

Somehow I missed this incredibly interesting thread first time round. Your choice looks plausible; however, just one thought: As I'm new to this party, I see the rudder in three colours. The centre stripe matches the darker upper surface camou; so if it's DG/DE, it would be DG - but if the third colour at the bottom is no colour but mud splutter, why DG and Mid Stone? I am also not completely convinced by the black cowling underside. As has been stated, the light comes from almost dead above, and it seems to have been really fine weather that day. Such conditions will make for harsh shadows on the surface getting the least of light. Not fit for anecdotal evidence, but my first IAT visit in 1993 had almost Azorean weather, and the same plane photographed at different times could look entirely different (all on Fujichrome 100), depending on whether it was bright sunlight or overcast with diffuse lighting. The latter is not a problem here, of course.

[tempestfan]

9 hours ago, 85sqn said:

Hiya folks,

 

I’d just like to revisit this thread. I’ve found another photo of the aircraft and it might confirm or deny what you think about the rudder colours.

 

scroll down on this page: http://www.211squadron.org/across_the_styx.html

 

the rudder is quite strong compared to the rest of the camo. I’m going to get this aircraft back out of the stash soon. It’s almost ready for paint and I’m leaning towards. Dark Earth and Dark Green, rudder in Mid stone and dark earth. Black underside starboard engine cowling and possibly sky or azure undersides.

 

 

Somehow I missed this incredibly interesting thread first time round. Your choice looks plausible; however, just one thought: As I'm new to this party, I see the rudder in three colours. The centre stripe matches the darker upper surface camou; so if it's DG/DE, it would be DG - but if the third colour at the bottom is no colour but mud splutter, why DG and Mid Stone? I am also not completely convinced by the black cowling underside. As has been stated, the light comes from almost dead above, and it seems to have been really fine weather that day. Such conditions will make for harsh shadows on the surface getting the least of light. Not fit for anecdotal evidence, but my first IAT visit in 1993 had almost Azorean weather, and the same plane photographed at different times could look entirely different (all on Fujichrome 100), depending on whether it was bright sunlight or overcast with diffuse lighting. The latter is not a problem here, of course.