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WV908

1/72 Boeing 727 from Heller Boeing 707?

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Although the Classic - Modern cutoff on these forums is 1968/1969 and the 727 entered service in 1964, it has of course lasted way beyond that and with classic generally being the realm of propliners, I though I'd ask this here.

 

Knowing very little about the two types, is it possible to convert a Heller 707 into a 727? I know that both types differ in lower fuselage cross section, but I do not know by how much or where.

 

The primary thing I want to know is can I use the fuselage and wings of the Heller 707 and does the vertical stabilizer have roughly the same planform (ignoring engine No.2 on the 727)?

 

Cheers,

  WV908 

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That would be some serious surgery.

:popcorn:

I am intrigued to know how big an operation this will be. Watching with interest.

I know that Romeo Alpha Yankee converted a 707 to a 737, he might be able to shed some light on this.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, WV908 said:

 

 

The primary thing I want to know is can I use the fuselage and wings of the Heller 707 and does the vertical stabilizer have roughly the same planform (ignoring engine No.2 on the 727)?

 

Cheers,

  WV908 

Hello,

 

It depends also which type of B-707 you intend to build.

 

Here are images to compare their wings :

 B-707-120 :

http://www.wikiwand.com/es/Boeing_707#/Especificaciones_(Boeing_707-120B)

 

B-707-320B :

https://aviationsmilitaires.net/v3/kb/picture/189/boeing-707-320b

 

to B-727 :

http://www.wikiwand.com/es/Boeing_727

 

I hope this can help.

Cheers.
AV O

Edited by AV O

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I think there are more major things to think about than the fuselage cross-section, which strangely enough I believe IS the same in the 707 and 727!

 

Seriously, the 727 wing is completely different to the 707s (span, plan view, overall shape, gear location and bays, and high lift devices are different - as is the wing centre section around the lower fuselage), as is the vertical stab.  About the only usable things in the Heller kit would be the main forward fuselage section, I'd have thought. 

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Afternoon all,

  I intend on building the Oil-Spill response 727 G-OSRA, which is based only 15 miles from my home. 

 

I was hoping that I could relocate the wing box, shorten the span of the wings and scratch the tail area. If the wing is way off I'm better just putting my money into the Welsh models kit. 

 

The idea of using a Heller 707 was for the cost - Nearly 1/6th of any available 727 kit.

 

Cheers,

  WV908

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WV908: This is a tall order.  You simply cannot do what you have described and expect it to look right.  The only thing that the 707 and 727 have roughly in common is part of the upper deck above the lobe crease, and the cockpit area.  The fuselage taper at both ends is different, and the lower deck is significantly shallower on the 727.  If I were you, I'd invest in the Welsh Models kit, or if you have a lot of extra money, see if you can get a copy of Kurt's 1/72 resin kit, which is outstanding.  BTW: I have built the Heller kit twice (as a 707 both times :)and really like it, but it requires some modification to the cockpit area to make it look right.

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1 hour ago, WV908 said:

Afternoon all,

  I intend on building the Oil-Spill response 727 G-OSRA, which is based only 15 miles from my home. 

 

I was hoping that I could relocate the wing box, shorten the span of the wings and scratch the tail area. If the wing is way off I'm better just putting my money into the Welsh models kit. 

 

The idea of using a Heller 707 was for the cost - Nearly 1/6th of any available 727 kit.

 

Cheers,

  WV908

So you’d happily scratch build the centre engine intake and duct, rear fuselage and centre engine exhaust, vertical and horizontal stabs, etc.? If you were already prepared to do all that then maybe the wings wouldn’t be too big of a challenge as well. Otherwise I really think a 727 kit is best.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

WV908: This is a tall order.  You simply cannot do what you have described and expect it to look right.  The only thing that the 707 and 727 have roughly in common is part of the upper deck above the lobe crease, and the cockpit area.  The fuselage taper at both ends is different, and the lower deck is significantly shallower on the 727.  If I were you, I'd invest in the Welsh Models kit, or if you have a lot of extra money, see if you can get a copy of Kurt's 1/72 resin kit, which is outstanding.  BTW: I have built the Heller kit twice (as a 707 both times :)and really like it, but it requires some modification to the cockpit area to make it look right.

 

I've seen a few of that resin kit going for £400, but I'd happily stump up for the Welsh models kit. The problem is every thing me I go on their website I'm drawn to the Comets first.

 

I'm building the Heller E3 at the minute, converting it to an RAF one (having to do my own decals and 3D printed engines though) - does that have the same cockpit issue? 

 

57 minutes ago, Skymonster said:

So you’d happily scratch build the centre engine intake and duct, rear fuselage and centre engine exhaust, vertical and horizontal stabs, etc.? If you were already prepared to do all that then maybe the wings wouldn’t be too big of a challenge as well. Otherwise I really think a 727 kit is best.

Heavens no, I can cheat through the use of a 3D printer though haha :) It's likely it's too much work to the wings and rest of the airframe though. 

 

Cheers,

  WV908

 

 

Edited by WV908

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I'd suggest you look at these Boeing drawings and compare them carefully before making a decision:

 

https://postimg.cc/w7cxkc0W

 

https://postimg.cc/hfbT6YST

 

Note that the 707 is the -320 variant. 707s had three distinctly different wings. See here: https://www.airlinercafe.com/page.php?id=72

 

You would be best advised to seek out a 727 kit.

 

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4 hours ago, WV908 said:

Afternoon all,

  I intend on building the Oil-Spill response 727 G-OSRA, which is based only 15 miles from my home. 

 

I was hoping that I could relocate the wing box, shorten the span of the wings and scratch the tail area. If the wing is way off I'm better just putting my money into the Welsh models kit. 

 

The idea of using a Heller 707 was for the cost - Nearly 1/6th of any available 727 kit.

 

Cheers,

  WV908

Please be aware that the Welsh Models 727 kit is the shorter series 100 model and not the 200 series.

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20 minutes ago, Space Ranger said:

I'd suggest you look at these Boeing drawings and compare them carefully before making a decision:

 

https://postimg.cc/w7cxkc0W

 

https://postimg.cc/hfbT6YST

 

Note that the 707 is the -320 variant. 707s had three distinctly different wings. See here: https://www.airlinercafe.com/page.php?id=72

 

You would be best advised to seek out a 727 kit.

 

 

I didn't know about the different 707 wings, thanks for that :)

3 minutes ago, 26Decals said:

Please be aware that the Welsh Models 727 kit is the shorter series 100 model and not the 200 series.

 

I'm hoping it shouldn't be too much trouble to add in a fuselage plug or two, depending on extention points? 

 

Cheers,

  WV908

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On this topic, the Dash-80 prototype would also be a large job in converting the Heller kit.

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2 hours ago, WV908 said:

 

I'm hoping it shouldn't be too much trouble to add in a fuselage plug or two, depending on extention points? 

 

Cheers,

  WV908

There are a few other differences between the 727-100 and -200 in addition to the fuselage plugs. Noticeably the centre engine intake is round on the -200 whereas it is an oval shape on the -100. Furthermore you will need different number 1 and number 3 engines as G-OSRA and G-OSRB were fitted with upgraded and quieter outboard power plants (JT8D-217s instead of JT8D-17s] that have a different cowl shape and different reversers.

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6 hours ago, WV908 said:

 

I've seen a few of that resin kit going for £400, but I'd happily stump up for the Welsh models kit. The problem is every thing me I go on their website I'm drawn to the Comets first.

 

I'm building the Heller E3 at the minute, converting it to an RAF one (having to do my own decals and 3D printed engines though) - does that have the same cockpit issue? 

 

Heavens no, I can cheat through the use of a 3D printer though haha :) It's likely it's too much work to the wings and rest of the airframe though. 

 

Cheers,

  WV908

 

 

WV908:  Keep in mind that the Heller kit has the same cockpit issue, in which the cockpit transparency sits just a bit high on the fuselage (maybe 4mm or so) and appears from the side to be tilted slightly, as if it's looking upward at the heavens.  Best way to correct that is to cut off the nose section from the transparency forward, right on the panel line, lower the whole assembly about 4mm, reset the slope of the cockpit transparency, and build up the cabin roof as necessary with some filler putty or plastic card until it blends seamlessly with the rest of the fuselage.  You'll know you're right when you see that the bottom of the passenger window line is roughly even with, but slightly below, an artificial line drawn horizontally through the cockpit transparency's lowest part (the junction of the two side windows).  Wish I had an illustration.

On how to make the Heller E-3 an E-3:  I'm not an expert.  Having once flown on the real thing (a U.S. E-3A) and walked around/under it, I can tell you there are several notable detail differences between an E-3 and a 707-320B/C, particularly with vents for the packs in the under-fuselage wing center section.  Nothing major unless you try to build a TF-33-powered version, in which case you'll want the resin conversion engines to avoid headache.  The CFM-56 power plants are available in the "Airfix" kit of the D, but not quite as good as those provided in the AMT/ERTL KC-135R kit.  You should find photos for reference if you can.  Alex T.

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Wow! I did not realise there were cockpit issues with the Heller/Airfix 707/E-3 kits, I have built 2 (E-3D and B707 tanker) and have another waiting to be finished (as an E-8C). I might have to look into the cockpit issue on later builds (another 2 707s and 2 E-3 kits in the stash), who doesn't look to look of the 707!

 

 

I also have the KMC 727 to attack one day, I know it has a lot of shape issue but I will bumble through them as I build.

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13 hours ago, AV O said:

Hello,

 

It depends also which type of B-707 you intend to build.

 

Here are images to compare their wings :

 B-707-120 :

http://www.wikiwand.com/es/Boeing_707#/Especificaciones_(Boeing_707-120B)

 

B-707-320B :

https://aviationsmilitaires.net/v3/kb/picture/189/boeing-707-320b

 

to B-727 :

http://www.wikiwand.com/es/Boeing_727

 

I hope this can help.

Cheers.
AV O

Is there a pictures like this for the prototype Dash-80? Just curious to see what's different.

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35 minutes ago, busnproplinerfan said:

Is there a pictures like this for the prototype Dash-80? Just curious to see what's different.

Just google Boeing 367-80 diagram for the layout

 

Here is a good PDF on the development of the Dash 80 as well

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1 hour ago, Romeo Alpha Yankee said:

Just google Boeing 367-80 diagram for the layout

 

Here is a good PDF on the development of the Dash 80 as well

Thanks, helps a lot, didn't know the fuselages cross sections varied so much.Would be a bit of work, the first production one would be a lot easier. I have the 367 in the Aurora kit.

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7 hours ago, Skymonster said:

There are a few other differences between the 727-100 and -200 in addition to the fuselage plugs. Noticeably the centre engine intake is round on the -200 whereas it is an oval shape on the -100. Furthermore you will need different number 1 and number 3 engines as G-OSRA and G-OSRB were fitted with upgraded and quieter outboard power plants (JT8D-217s instead of JT8D-17s] that have a different cowl shape and different reversers.

 

Plenty of work to do, even on a basic 727 kit then. Thanks :)

6 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

WV908:  Keep in mind that the Heller kit has the same cockpit issue, in which the cockpit transparency sits just a bit high on the fuselage (maybe 4mm or so) and appears from the side to be tilted slightly, as if it's looking upward at the heavens.  Best way to correct that is to cut off the nose section from the transparency forward, right on the panel line, lower the whole assembly about 4mm, reset the slope of the cockpit transparency, and build up the cabin roof as necessary with some filler putty or plastic card until it blends seamlessly with the rest of the fuselage.  You'll know you're right when you see that the bottom of the passenger window line is roughly even with, but slightly below, an artificial line drawn horizontally through the cockpit transparency's lowest part (the junction of the two side windows).  Wish I had an illustration.

On how to make the Heller E-3 an E-3:  I'm not an expert.  Having once flown on the real thing (a U.S. E-3A) and walked around/under it, I can tell you there are several notable detail differences between an E-3 and a 707-320B/C, particularly with vents for the packs in the under-fuselage wing center section.  Nothing major unless you try to build a TF-33-powered version, in which case you'll want the resin conversion engines to avoid headache.  The CFM-56 power plants are available in the "Airfix" kit of the D, but not quite as good as those provided in the AMT/ERTL KC-135R kit.  You should find photos for reference if you can.  Alex T.

That's interesting about the nose - it's the same issue as the Anigrand VC-10, but this looks easier to correct. Ironically enough, I have some CFM-56's from a scrapped AMT KC-135 to use on this. I still have the mortal remains of that 135 in a box (it used to be hung from my ceiling when I was kid but it took a nose dive) which I may attempt to rebuild and graft to the combat conversions Rivet Joint set, but I know those things are another kettle of fish. 

 

6 hours ago, Romeo Alpha Yankee said:

Wow! I did not realise there were cockpit issues with the Heller/Airfix 707/E-3 kits, I have built 2 (E-3D and B707 tanker) and have another waiting to be finished (as an E-8C). I might have to look into the cockpit issue on later builds (another 2 707s and 2 E-3 kits in the stash), who doesn't look to look of the 707!

 

 

I also have the KMC 727 to attack one day, I know it has a lot of shape issue but I will bumble through them as I build.

 

Is there any chance you have any spares from the E3-D sprues you have that you'd be able to send my way please? Namely the wingtips and refuelling probe 

 

1 hour ago, Abandoned Project said:

Found this helpful about the nose correction

https://www.airlinercafe.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=9690

 

HTH

 

Thanks, that's a lot of help :)

 

Cheers,

  WV908

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2 hours ago, WV908 said:

.....

 

Is there any chance you have any spares from the E3-D sprues you have that you'd be able to send my way please? Namely the wingtips and refuelling probe 

 

Thanks, that's a lot of help :)

 

Cheers,

  WV908

I will take a look at the spares I have and get back to you, Do you need to off shaped (I made new ones for mine) HF probes that are inboard of the wing tips as well?

 

I will PM you with what I have and get address details.

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9 minutes ago, Romeo Alpha Yankee said:

I will take a look at the spares I have and get back to you, Do you need to off shaped (I made new ones for mine) HF probes that are inboard of the wing tips as well?

 

I will PM you with what I have and get address details.

Hi,

  Yes please - pretty much anything spare from the sprue that has the CFM-56 engines on as none of those things are in the base Heller kit.

 

Cheers,

  WV908

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"... also have the KMC 727 to attack one day, I know it has a lot of shape issue but I will bumble through them as I build."

 

This KMC kit is not for the faint of heart.  Believe me, every time I've opened up my box with high hopes, I find them dashed just as often and thus reseal he box.  I'd be happy to send the kit to a more motivated builder.  Others have managed to turn the KMC kit into something that fairly resembles a 727, but I lack the will.  AT

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