Norseman UC-64a 43-5344, 320th Air Transport Squadron, USAAF - likely colours?

[wellsprop]

Hi all,

 

I've got an interest in modelling this particular aircraft, Noorduyn Norseman UC-64a 43-5344 as it crashed at King Alfred's Tower, near Stourhead - fairly local to me, I visit quite often.

 

"On 10th July 1944 a Norseman UC-64a 43-5344 assigned to 320th Air Transport Squadron, 27th Air Transport Group, USAAF, was tasked to transport a Lockheed Hudson V wheel and tyre required to repair an a/c of this type at Prestwick. On approaching the the Somerset/Wiltshire border in thick fog, the pilot requested permission to land at Zeals. Flying Control refused permission because of the bad weather conditions and shortly after the a/c struck the pinnacle of Alfred's Tower positioned on the hill just north of the airfield. It crashed on Hillcombe Farm, South Brewham killing the pilot 1st Lt Wilfred Malone , Master Sgt Lloyd F Cheek and Cpl Henry Mazzie. The two NCOs were to instal the replacement wheel on arrival at Prestwick.

The 6 cwt finial was replaced on 25th June 1986 by a helicopter from Yeovilton."

 

Details from 'Wings over Wiltshire'

 

The only trouble is, I am unsure what the markings are likely to be. A little bit of research brings up this image of 320th squadron Norsemans in France mid 1944.

 

 

Whilst these marking instructions show the Norseman in olive drab over light grey.

 

http://manuals.hobbico.com/rvl/80-4291.pdf

 

My assumption is that the colours are likely to be the same/similar to those shown in the drab scheme, but with the chequered yellow and black nose, plus the D-Day stripes as shown (the aircraft crashed in July '44.

 

An additional question, does the "43" at the beginnning of the serial number 43-5344 means this aircraft was ordered/manufactured in 1943?

 

Kind regards

Ben

[Work In Progress]

It's the fiscal year of order being placed, not the year of manufacture. Though for simple aeroplanes at a time of vast volume manufacture in WW2, the year of order was very often the year of manufacture and delivery. Not so nowadays! And there is also the difference between calendar year and fiscal year.

 

The US Federal fiscal year is an odd one, running 1 October to 30 Sept.  FY1943 began on 1 October 1942 and ended 30 September 1943 so that's the period in which your Norseman was ordered.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Work In Progress

[wellsprop]

1 hour ago, Work In Progress said:

It's the fiscal year of order being placed, not the year of manufacture. Though for simple aeroplanes at a time of vast volume manufacture in WW2, the year of order was very often the year of manufacture and delivery. Not so nowadays! And there is also the difference between calendar year and fiscal year.

 

The US Federal fiscal year is an odd one, running 1 October to 30 Sept.  FY1943 began on 1 October 1942 and ended 30 September 1943 so that's the period in which your Norseman was ordered.

 

Thanks WIP

 

Given it was ordered between those dates, I'm guessing it's likely it would be in olive drab - I struggle to see it being painted silver at that time of the war. Maybe they were repainted after the move to France, hence the picture in my first post.

[Work In Progress]

43-5344 was delivered to the USAAF on February 1, 1944 and flown to Fort Dix, New Jersey on February 2.  Sent to New York on February 12 for shipment to the 8th Air Force so probably arrived in theatre around the end of Feb. 

 

The one in your pic above is another 1943 contract, 43-35372, delivered to the USAAF on April 20, 1944.  Flown to Fort Dix, New Jersey, arriving April 21 and sent to Newark, New Jersey on May 2 for shipment to the 8th. So almost three months behind. 

 

The one in the Revell re-box of the Matchbox kit is  43-35389, delivered to the USAAF on May 4, 1944. Flown to Newark, arriving May 5.  Shipped to the 8th on May 14, so later than both of them.

 

So I would say either colour is possible. 

 

I can see absolutely no reason to paint a slow and vulnerable unarmed aeroplane silver after moving it from a zone of friendly air supremacy in the UK to a combat zone in France. If anything I would be camouflaging it to move to France, where it is now vulnerable to ground attack as well as air, rather than going out of my way to make it more conspicuous. So I would bet the ones in your photo above were silver-painted on delivery.

 

Are you building from the Revell re-issue? If you are, I would be interested in a deal on your unused decals for the civilian ambulance aircraft on the sheet, CF-SAM

Edited May 19, 2020 by Work In Progress

[EwenS]

See post #35 from back in 2013 on another site

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/no-camouflage-on-usaaf-planes.36226/page-2

 

Based on that your aircraft was probably silver/natural metal finish, unless they were using up an old stock of pre-painted components in Jan 1944. Depends on when the paint was being applied in the production process.

 

As for delivery times I think you underestimate what was involved.  From some limited research I’ve done on tanks and some aircraft types, factory door in the US to operating units in Europe was generally in the order of 4-5 months. After leaving the production line an aircraft might route through a modification centre to be brought up to the latest spec (more efficient than changing everything on the production line). Then for smaller aircraft it has to be flown to somewhere near a port to either be boxed up for transport, or given protective coatings if going as deck transport. Then it has to be allocated to a ship to sail in a particular convoy (1-2 weeks on the high seas). Then on arrival in the U.K. the ship has to wait to unload and the process of transporting the aircraft to a facility to allow unpacking the aircraft can begin. At each stage there is some element of delay as the workforce get round to it.

 

Larger aircraft like bombers and transports could of course be flown over, but again there were delays. The major delay here was waiting for good enough weather at certain times of year. No flying above it in jet liner comfort in those days.

 

By way of example the first production P-51B rolled of the production line in June 1943, and the first units in Europe began to receive them on 16th Nov 1943 being the 354th FG, with 65 squadron RAF following the next month. P-51D started coming off the production line in Oct/Nov 1943 and began arriving in the U.K. in March 1944.

 

There are examples of kit being rushed to the U.K. in less time. Several hundred of the latest model Shermans only produced from Jan 1944 were delivered to the tank depots in the U.K. in April. But they were clearly marked as a rush job and delivery expedited.

Edited May 19, 2020 by EwenS

[Shark444]

I'm interested to know what scale you're planning to model the Norseman in - 1/72 or 1/48?  An out of production Minicraft kit?

[gingerbob]

My daughter keeps prompting me to do "that floatplane"- the Minicraft 48th- but unless I use it as a therapy against AMS, I keep shuddering when I think about the less desirable aspects of the kit.

[Dana Bell]

Hi Ben,

 

You should try to get your hands on a copy of Gooney Birds & Ferry Tales by Jon A Maguire - it's a photo history of the 27th TG.  On page 121 there's a photo of 43-5392 showing OD and Neutral Gray camouflage.  Page 258 has 43-5343 in the same camo, so I think your aircraft is safely bracketed.  The book notes the 320th ATSq colors were the back and yellow tail-top stripes and cowl checks, though there were exceptions.

 

The fiscal year was created to end the need for extensive year-end reports around the Christmas/New Year holidays.  Originally the FY ran from 1 July through 30 June; FY43, for example, ran from 1 July 1942.  (Of course, in the US this meant the fiscal year began just as everyone was preparing for the 4th of July holidays, so in 1972 the dates were changed to 1 October thru 30 September.)  On air force aircraft the fiscal year reflected the year the aircraft was ordered - an FY43 aircraft could be delivered in calendar 1942, 1943, or even later.  A few aircraft impressed into the AAF in FY43 were built in the 1930s.

 

Anyhow, best of luck with the build!

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

 

[Graham Boak]

The Matchbox kit is a bit of a mix of variants in itself, but I gather goes together well.

[Work In Progress]

It does indeed: looks like the biplane team did it. Nice exterior for the period, no interior to speak of, but you can't see a lot anyway as it is not over-glazed. 

Tony O'Toole did a nice one here

and this was a nice build with a relevant colour scheme

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Space Ranger]

Not to disagree with my friend Dana Bell, who has probably forgotten more about USAAF camouflage and markings than I could ever learn, but the aircraft crashed in mid-1944 and there is a photo showing silver doped aircraft from the same unit in mid-1944. So the best documentary evidence that we have seems to indicate the aircraft was more than likely silver doped.

[Work In Progress]

5 hours ago, EwenS said:

As for delivery times I think you underestimate what was involved.  From some limited research I’ve done on tanks and some aircraft types, factory door in the US to operating units in Europe was generally in the order of 4-5 months. After leaving the production line an aircraft might route through a modification centre to be brought up to the latest spec (more efficient than changing everything on the production line). Then for smaller aircraft it has to be flown to somewhere near a port to either be boxed up for transport, or given protective coatings if going as deck transport. Then it has to be allocated to a ship to sail in a particular convoy (1-2 weeks on the high seas). Then on arrival in the U.K. the ship has to wait to unload and the process of transporting the aircraft to a facility to allow unpacking the aircraft can begin. At each stage there is some element of delay as the workforce get round to it.

In that case how should we account for 43-35372, in the pic at the top of the thread, leaving the factory door on 20 April 1944 and being in squadron service in France by the middle of the year? (At least according to wellprop's source for the photo). I've already given the dates of its flight across country, it was at the docks 11 days after leaving the factory.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Space Ranger]

22 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

In that case how should we account for 43-35372, in the pic at the top of the thread, leaving the factory door on 20 April 1944 and being in squadron service in France by the middle of the year? (At least according to wellprop's source for the photo).

Easy. There was a war on. Aircraft were badly needed. And some aircraft left the factory already crated for shipment overseas.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Space Ranger

[Chuck1945]

Is mid 1944 the actual time period for the original photo? No sign of underwing invasion stripes that I can see and the GIs are all wearing coats or jackets...

[EwenS]

Given that the invasion stripes are limited to the lower fuselage only so far as I can see, that would place the photo no earlier than 25th Aug 1944. AIUI orders were issued then to reduce the extent of the D-Day stripes, with the implementation period specified as lasting until 10 Sept 1944. Also a large amount of water on the ground suggests later in the year. So it could easily have taken 4-5 months from delivery to arrive in Theatre and still be in that picture.

[tonyot]

1 hour ago, Space Ranger said:

Not to disagree with my friend Dana Bell, who has probably forgotten more about USAAF camouflage and markings than I could ever learn, but the aircraft crashed in mid-1944 and there is a photo showing silver doped aircraft from the same unit in mid-1944. So the best documentary evidence that we have seems to indicate the aircraft was more than likely silver doped.

There were camouflaged and silver Norseman aircraft in the UK in 1944,...... plenty of camouflaged aircraft wore D-Day stripes after all;

http://www.glennmillertrust.co.uk/Norseman.htm

 

http://aircrashsites.co.uk/usaaf-crash-sites-1942-1945/dsc_0012-2/

 

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/19732

Edited May 19, 2020 by tonyot

[Space Ranger]

1 minute ago, tonyot said:

There were camouflaged and silver Norseman aircraft in the UK in 1944,...... plenty of camouflaged aircraft wore D-Day stripes after all;

http://www.glennmillertrust.co.uk/Norseman.htm

 

http://aircrashsites.co.uk/usaaf-crash-sites-1942-1945/dsc_0012-2/

I agree. However, the best available photographic evidence seems to indicate that those of the 320 Air Transport Sqn were silver doped at the time in question.

[tonyot]

5 minutes ago, Space Ranger said:

I agree. However, the best available photographic evidence seems to indicate that those of the 320 Air Transport Sqn were silver doped at the time in question.

I found one quite easily;

 

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/5543

Edited May 19, 2020 by tonyot

[wellsprop]

Oh my gosh, thanks for all the replies everyone!

 

I intend to do the 1/48 version (having recently switched to 48th scale)!

 

Seems like I'll be painting it in silver dope

[Space Ranger]

48 minutes ago, tonyot said:

I found one quite easily;

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/unit/237

Okay. What is the date of this photo? Judging from the serial number, this could have been an aircraft that was camouflaged before the order to eliminate camouflage was implemented.

[tonyot]

10 minutes ago, Space Ranger said:

Okay. What is the date of this photo? Judging from the serial number, this could have been an aircraft that was camouflaged before the order to eliminate camouflage was implemented.

It has D-Day stripes,..... and partial ones at that,...... so was around in the summer of 1944 at least. Judging by the fact that there are no stripes under the wings,....I would say it was late 1944-early 1945.

Edited May 19, 2020 by tonyot

[Graham Boak]

Go with late 1944.  Stripes were removed from all except medium bombers b y September(?).

[tonyot]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Go with late 1944.  Stripes were removed from all except medium bombers b y September(?).

Really Graham? 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:RAF_Bodney_-_352d_Fighter_Group_-_P-51D_Mustang_44-14882.jpg

 

https://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=4815

 

http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/profiles/oldcrowd2/oldcrowd2.htm

 

 

http://www.368thfightergroup.com/395-photo-2-w.html

 

Quite a lot of USAAF aircraft carried on wearing D-Day stripes after September 1944.

 

Cheers

           Tony

[gingerbob]

3 hours ago, Space Ranger said:

...the best available photographic evidence seems to indicate that those of the 320 Air Transport Sqn were silver doped at the time in question.

 

They would not have repainted an OD Norseman just because camo was no longer required.  It has been demonstrated (with photographic evidence) that the serials around the intended subject were OD, while the slightly later serials were silver.  Think of all those mixed flocks of OD and silver B-17s.

[Space Ranger]

44 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

 

They would not have repainted an OD Norseman just because camo was no longer required.

I never claimed that they did.