F-104G Starfighter 1/48 Kinetic / Markings TBD - For now Canadian CF-104

[baldwin8]

Your determination in fitting those intakes is commended. Noted for whenever I start my kit. Nice save.   

[Shark444]

Confucius say: "There are no small projects..."  😉

[Rob K.]

Hi, after yesterday's cosmetic surgery, got the following done today:

 

Attached the cones properly to the intake again and joined the intakes back to the fuselage.

 

 

Filled all the gaps with a CA-mix. A good sanding session, made everything nice and smooth again.

 

Airbrushed AK black micro-filler to check for anything that I missed during filling and sanding:

 

 

The intake joints appear to be gone. Some re-scribing to be done tomorrow though after I may check it with some grey Mr fine surfacer if in doubt.

 

 

In addition the intake cones are now nice and close to the fuselage.

 

 

That's all for today.

 

Thanks for watching and your feedback so far.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Rob K.
additional photo material

[Steve in Ottawa]

Here are a couple of shots of that camera turret as used on that AETE CF-104. I don't know if it was fitted on their other Starfighters, as it looks like they had to cut a hole into the belly skin to make room for the installation. You can see that the white camera body points straight down so I am assuming that there's a 45-degree mirror to bounce the image up to the lens. I'm sure the turret could rotate to point at whatever was being studied at the time on the fuselage or wings. I hope these links will bring you to the images:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/17wu4hydafy5jzz/DND Canada photo AEC74-119 CF-104 having belly camera pod installed.jpg?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/392wwdn6webhhu1/DND Canada photo AEC74-118 CF-104705 and tech with camera pod.jpg?dl=0

 

[Rob K.]

2 minutes ago, Steve in Ottawa said:

Here are a couple of shots of that camera turret as used on that AETE CF-104. I don't know if it was fitted on their other Starfighters, as it looks like they had to cut a hole into the belly skin to make room for the installation. You can see that the white camera body points straight down so I am assuming that there's a 45-degree mirror to bounce the image up to the lens. I'm sure the turret could rotate to point at whatever was being studied at the time on the fuselage or wings. I hope these links will bring you to the images:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/17wu4hydafy5jzz/DND Canada photo AEC74-119 CF-104 having belly camera pod installed.jpg?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/392wwdn6webhhu1/DND Canada photo AEC74-118 CF-104705 and tech with camera pod.jpg?dl=0

 

Steve, that's amazing those images. 👍

Thanks for sending them to me. Now I have got to contemplate how to construct this feature 🤔

 

Rgds,

 

Rob

[baldwin8]

12 minutes ago, Rob K. said:

Steve, that's amazing those images. 👍

Steve is always a wealth of Canadian Military references.

[Rob K.]

Just now, baldwin8 said:

Steve is always a wealth of Canadian Military references.

Some good assistance on this build. Much appreciated 👍

[Rob K.]

I would quite like to have flaps and leading edge displayed at an angle for visual interest.

There are definitely occasions where 104's (unmanned, parked) have them down:

 

 

However, I cannot find a single CF-104 image (other than a restored Norwegian cf-104) where CF-104's have them down whilst unmanned and on the ground.

 

So I guess it will have to be flaps up!

 

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Rob K.
grammar

[Rob K.]

Been busy today with re-scribing and riveting (and mis-scribing) all that was lost due to sanding:

 

 

Am checking all the work with some grey fine primer surfacer because I couldn't always clearly make out the result of today's work on the earlier black surface.

 

 

Probably the black gloss coat tomorrow before the metal coat or some work on the canopy (or both)

 

That's all, thanks for watching.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

[Rob K.]

On 27/05/2020 at 20:42, Steve in Ottawa said:

Here are a couple of shots of that camera turret as used on that AETE CF-104. I don't know if it was fitted on their other Starfighters, as it looks like they had to cut a hole into the belly skin to make room for the installation. You can see that the white camera body points straight down so I am assuming that there's a 45-degree mirror to bounce the image up to the lens. I'm sure the turret could rotate to point at whatever was being studied at the time on the fuselage or wings. I hope these links will bring you to the images:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/17wu4hydafy5jzz/DND Canada photo AEC74-119 CF-104 having belly camera pod installed.jpg?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/392wwdn6webhhu1/DND Canada photo AEC74-118 CF-104705 and tech with camera pod.jpg?dl=0

 

Hello Steve,

 

May I make use of your knowledge base once more?

 

I have the colors for the wings (Top&Bottom), however for the horizontal stabilizer, what kind of red colour are we looking at (is it an Orangy Red)? Is the Red color on the wing tanks and intakes the same as used on the tail? I find it quite hard to tell and I have been browsing high and low on the web but to no avail.

 

 

 

Your help (or anyone else  watching) would be greatly appreciated.

 

(Any Mr color/Mr Hobby or even Tamiya reference would be even better ............... sorry to stretch it)

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rob K.]

Hi,

 

I may just have found some reference with regards to colours:

 

https://www.ipmscanada.com/1989/01/01/ipms-canada-canadian-colours-guide-1989/

 

Gone through some other builds of Canadian aircraft with the red high visibility markings and from what I gather Tamiya X-7 is a close enough match. In my case I will go for the laquer version and ordered Tamiya lp-7.

 

 

Regards,

 

Rob

Edited May 29, 2020 by Rob K.
addition

[Steve in Ottawa]

(sorry for the delay in putting this together)

 

Hi Rob,

 

That particular scheme on the CF-104 carries a mix of 1-GP-12c colour 609-401 Day-Glo Red-Orange and the Canadian 1-GP-12c colour Red 509-102 or by the later specified (starting in 1971) colour of Red 509-101. Red 509-101 was later replaced by the closest FS595 colour, Red 11105. It’s a reasonably close replacement colour.

 

According to Pat Martin’s great series of books on RCAF and CAF aircraft schemes and colours, the CF-104 in Canada originally had a horizontal stabilizer painted in Day-Glo Red-Orange, as were some of the panels on the sides of the intakes and on the tip tanks. However, due to the unacce1ptably high level of time and resources needed to apply and maintain this paint, in 1965 the Day-Glo was withdrawn from use as the “Search markings” colour for the wingtips and tailplanes and was replaced by a normal red paint. This wouldn’t have been an instantaneous change-over; as the time came for the Day-Glo areas to be refinished, the areas would have been stripped and refinished in the new red shade.

 

There are 1967 photos of CEPE (the predecessor of AETE) CF-104s clearly showing them with a normal red tailplane, along with the Day-Glo intake and tip tank markings.  Unfortunately it’s hard to tell what colour is being used on the tailplane of 104704 at the time of the 1974 belly view photo from AETE. It might have been Day-Glo, but for my modelling money I’d go with a normal red for the tailplane.

 

Those CEPE/AETE Day-Glo markings changed from time to time on the CF-104, as did the colour and type of tip tanks being flown. AETE had some modified tip tanks, named “Separation Camera Pod”, to hold motion picture cameras, again to get different views of whatever they wanted to record. This added some new access panels and camera apertures to the standard CF-104 tip tank. In some shots the access panels are visible as the red-painted areas on the outboard sides of the natural metal tip tanks (these pods were later painted overall red). The inboard sides had four camera windows, two round and two rectangular, to allow recording of whatever event was being studied.

 

Sidebar note on the CF-104 wings - the lower surface of natural metal CF-104s was Grey 501-109, which is not matched by any FS595 colour.  Here’s an extract from a CP-140 article written by IPMS Canada member Frank Cuden in RT Vol.37, No. 4:

 

That Elusive Canadian shade - Grey, 1-GP-12c 501-109
With the help of RT Editor Steve Sauvé an original paint sample of 1-GP-12c Grey 501-109 was secured and sent to me. Then it was just a matter of mixing colours to get the right and unique shade of grey for the model.
[Steve] had obtained [the paint sample] from a CAF aircraft refinishing section that was spraying this colour onto a CC-129 Dakota, so you don’t get much more accurate than that. White Ensign’s [version of this] colour [White Ensign Models paint, WEMCC M23 Modern Royal Canadian Navy RCN Grey 501‑109] seemed too intense and too ‘blue’ whereas the original mix of Testors Model Master enamels USSR Interior Green, Insignia White and Light Gull Gray... made the shade ‘spot on’.

 

Frank’s Model Master Mix for Grey 501-109
5 parts FS 36440 Gull Gray
3 parts Flat White
1 part USSR Interior Blue-Green

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Steve in Ottawa
completed post

[Rob K.]

22 hours ago, Steve in Ottawa said:

(sorry for the delay in putting this together)

 

Hi Rob,

 

That particular scheme on the CF-104 carries a mix of 1-GP-12c colour 609-401 Day-Glo Red-Orange and the Canadian 1-GP-12c colour Red 509-102 or by the later specified (starting in 1971) colour of Red 509-101. Red 509-101 was later replaced by the closest FS595 colour, Red 11105. It’s a reasonably close replacement colour.

 

According to Pat Martin’s great series of books on RCAF and CAF aircraft schemes and colours, the CF-104 in Canada originally had a horizontal stabilizer painted in Day-Glo Red-Orange, as were some of the panels on the sides of the intakes and on the tip tanks. However, due to the unacce1ptably high level of time and resources needed to apply and maintain this paint, in 1965 the Day-Glo was withdrawn from use as the “Search markings” colour for the wingtips and tailplanes and was replaced by a normal red paint. This wouldn’t have been an instantaneous change-over; as the time came for the Day-Glo areas to be refinished, the areas would have been stripped and refinished in the new red shade.

 

There are 1967 photos of CEPE (the predecessor of AETE) CF-104s clearly showing them with a normal red tailplane, along with the Day-Glo intake and tip tank markings.  Unfortunately it’s hard to tell what colour is being used on the tailplane of 104704 at the time of the 1974 belly view photo from AETE. It might have been Day-Glo, but for my modelling money I’d go with a normal red for the tailplane.

 

Those CEPE/AETE Day-Glo markings changed from time to time on the CF-104, as did the colour and type of tip tanks being flown. AETE had some modified tip tanks, named “Separation Camera Pod”, to hold motion picture cameras, again to get different views of whatever they wanted to record. This added some new access panels and camera apertures to the standard CF-104 tip tank. In some shots the access panels are visible as the red-painted areas on the outboard sides of the natural metal tip tanks (these pods were later painted overall red). The inboard sides had four camera windows, two round and two rectangular, to allow recording of whatever event was being studied.

 

Sidebar note on the CF-104 wings - the lower surface of natural metal CF-104s was Grey 501-109, which is not matched by any FS595 colour.  Here’s an extract from a CP-140 article written by IPMS Canada member Frank Cuden in RT Vol.37, No. 4:

 

That Elusive Canadian shade - Grey, 1-GP-12c 501-109
With the help of RT Editor Steve Sauvé an original paint sample of 1-GP-12c Grey 501-109 was secured and sent to me. Then it was just a matter of mixing colours to get the right and unique shade of grey for the model.
[Steve] had obtained [the paint sample] from a CAF aircraft refinishing section that was spraying this colour onto a CC-129 Dakota, so you don’t get much more accurate than that. White Ensign’s [version of this] colour [White Ensign Models paint, WEMCC M23 Modern Royal Canadian Navy RCN Grey 501‑109] seemed too intense and too ‘blue’ whereas the original mix of Testors Model Master enamels USSR Interior Green, Insignia White and Light Gull Gray... made the shade ‘spot on’.

 

Frank’s Model Master Mix for Grey 501-109
5 parts FS 36440 Gull Gray
3 parts Flat White
1 part USSR Interior Blue-Green

 

 

Thanks Steve,

 

This is so much appreciated and hopefully a really good reference for anyone trying to build the CF104 in the future. Appreciate the amount of effort you put in.

 

I have been looking at the grey's as well. (prior to your message) I mainly use Mr Color paints and the ocaissional tamiya/ Mr Hobby paints (Just not that successful with the other brands up till now). Very hard to find a good grey just looking at photo's and even online color references. Before I noticed you message and had gone ahead with a  test for underside wings and nose cone based on below "digital" sample and mainly looking at photos of the Argus.

 

I found something that appears close (but perhaps not an entirely accurate match) in Mr color 308, which is grey with a hint of blue/green, their fs36375. (It shows a little darker here)

 

A photo image is difficult to judge, but it came out like this:

 

 

 

I may revisit this color and the nose is going to be "all black" anyway.

 

The lower part of the nose cone is still a little mystery to me as so many images also show a much lighter color like on the European starfighters.

With both the above and below pictures you can reference the color somewhat with the white snow in the backgrounds.

 

 

And then there is the black nose cone:

 

 

Thanks also for the advise regarding the color red.

 

I was looking to go for the tanks with the red panels and bands rather than the "all red" tanks, not knowing they were modified for photo purposes as described above.

 

 

This does pose an extra challenge, because now I have to browse the internet to see if I can find a picture of the inside of the tanks with the camera windows showing. 🤔

 

Thanks again for all the info,

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rob K.]

Hi,

 

As far as general progress goes:

 

Finished the corrections with regards to the earlier scribing.

Laid down the white for the  top wing and the same on the horizontal stabilizer as a base for the "Red" later.

 

 

 

That's all, thanks for watching.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[baldwin8]

Steve has passed along another photo to post although not directly this aircraft serial, just  a great detail shot. Your article is really turning to a go to reference for CF-104s, thanks Rob.

 

DND Canada photo PCN-4537, CF-104 in NASARR test rig, Cold Lake

Notice the grey strip along the fastener of the panel just aft of the red portion. As well grey used for the vents around the nose gear.

[Rob K.]

3 minutes ago, baldwin8 said:

Steve has passed along another photo to post although not directly this aircraft serial, just  a great detail shot. Your article is really turning to a go to reference for CF-104s, thanks Rob.

 

 

DND Canada photo PCN-4537, CF-104 in NASARR test rig, Cold Lake

Thanks Baldwin, That is indeed quite a nice reference image, also for the nose gear.

 

Ordered this for only £4.99 from ebay incl. shipping here in the UK, just hope they are accurate (couldn't find a review):

 

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

[Rob K.]

"AETE had some modified tip tanks, named “Separation Camera Pod”, to hold motion picture cameras, again to get different views of whatever they wanted to record. This added some new access panels and camera apertures to the standard CF-104 tip tank. In some shots the access panels are visible as the red-painted areas on the outboard sides of the natural metal tip tanks (these pods were later painted overall red). The inboard sides had four camera windows, two round and two rectangular, to allow recording of whatever event was being studied."

 

Looking at an image from an AETE CF-104, it appears the 2 round camera windows are visible. 

 

 

Just wondering if below positions are the rectangular camera windows:

 

 

Rgds,

 

Rob

Edited May 31, 2020 by Rob K.
additional photo material

[Steve in Ottawa]

Hi Rob,

 

For the camera windows I think you've got it right on; two round camera windows, and two rectangular windows; of course these would have to be optically flat windows in order to reduce distortion. I've asked a question about these tip tanks on a Facebook group for CAF Photo Techs/Image Techs, but I haven't yet heard back from anybody in my old military trade that worked on CEPE/AETE CF-104 camera pods. Note that the cameras would only be mounted and visible if they were installed for a specific tasking.

[Rob K.]

27 minutes ago, Steve in Ottawa said:

Hi Rob,

 

For the camera windows I think you've got it right on; two round camera windows, and two rectangular windows; of course these would have to be optically flat windows in order to reduce distortion. I've asked a question about these tip tanks on a Facebook group for CAF Photo Techs/Image Techs, but I haven't yet heard back from anybody in my old military trade that worked on CEPE/AETE CF-104 camera pods. Note that the cameras would only be mounted and visible if they were installed for a specific tasking.

Thanks Steve,

 

I was thinking of simulating this by simply painting the small camera windows gloss black or cut a black decal. Obviously that wouldn't make them optically flat, but I think I may need to make a compromise somewhere. Hopefully an image of these wing tanks turned camera-pods will emerge to see if major surgery is called for.

 

Thanks for inquiring.

 

Rgds,

 

Rob

[Steve in Ottawa]

Hi Rob,

 

I wouldn't recommend FS 36375 as a substitute. While being a slightly cool grey it still doesn't even come close to distinct bluish-green-grey character of Grey 501-109. Other colours like RAF Sky and Luftwaffe Hellgrau 76 are a bit closer but are still pretty far off the mark, depending on how concerned you are about such things. I think that Frank Cuden's paint mix described above resulted in a pleasing representation of the colour.

 

The wing bottom colour on the  CF-104 is certainly not easy to describe and the shift seen colour photos and computer monitors doesn't help. It is very susceptible to shifts in appearance. A story I have told about this colour is that when I got the CAF Refinishers at CFB Winnipeg to spray some of this paint (as it was used on the CC-129 Dakota) on the colour chips we used for the IPMS Canada Canadian Colours Guide I took a dry sheet outside and was admiring it in the sunlight. A few hundred yards away a Dak was landing and from that distance it looked like a much brighter greenish grey and I thought the refinishers had screwed up. That same Dak taxi'd up to our hangar and shut down and I took the sheet over and realized that it was exactly the same shade.

 

I don't know the history of how this colour got selected for use on RCAF/CAF aircraft (e.g., Argus, Aurora, Dakota, Neptune, Sea King, Tracker, and the CF-104), but it is also the same colour specified for the hulls of RCN/CAF ships. I did some comparisons to Royal Navy colours during the war and it got me to wondering if this might have been the origin of this colour for our equipment. It seems to be very close to the Admiralty colour B66, but I've never dug any further into it to see if there is a connection. If you Google up "royal navy ship colours" and search around for images of this colour you'll get an idea of how it looked. The B66 colour here didn't look too bad, but that's without comparing it to the original samples:  https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/british-royal-navy-colour-schemes

 

 

 

[Rob K.]

So managed to airbrush the horizontal stabiliser red (Forgot to make a picture). After looking at various "red's", I settled on Mr Color 158S super Italian Red, which seemed to come out ok on a white base. The other red colours I tried seemed a little "toy-like" as far as colour-tone went.

The plan for the red-ish dayglo on the tanks and intakes will be a different colour red with a slight hint of orange.

 

After masking, prepped the kit for the polished aluminium I plan to use. 

Mr color GX2 Ueno black was applied. This paint dries fast and hard. If thinned enough it makes for a good coat on its own. However if you then afterwards airbrush some pure mr. levelling thinner on top to the point where just an almost thin liquid layer appears and then once you withdraw the airbrush, the paint just tightens up. You can do the same with the Mr color GX 100 III super gloss varnish. it makes for a super smooth gloss coat. (Don't overdo it....try to avoid the paint/thinner from running away)

 

 

That's all,

 

Thanks for watching,

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

 

 

[Rob K.]

4 minutes ago, Steve in Ottawa said:

Hi Rob,

 

I wouldn't recommend FS 36375 as a substitute. While being a slightly cool grey it still doesn't even come close to distinct bluish-green-grey character of Grey 501-109. Other colours like RAF Sky and Luftwaffe Hellgrau 76 are a bit closer but are still pretty far off the mark, depending on how concerned you are about such things. I think that Frank Cuden's paint mix described above resulted in a pleasing representation of the colour.

 

The wing bottom colour on the  CF-104 is certainly not easy to describe and the shift seen colour photos and computer monitors doesn't help. It is very susceptible to shifts in appearance. A story I have told about this colour is that when I got the CAF Refinishers at CFB Winnipeg to spray some of this paint (as it was used on the CC-129 Dakota) on the colour chips we used for the IPMS Canada Canadian Colours Guide I took a dry sheet outside and was admiring it in the sunlight. A few hundred yards away a Dak was landing and from that distance it looked like a much brighter greenish grey and I thought the refinishers had screwed up. That same Dak taxi'd up to our hangar and shut down and I took the sheet over and realized that it was exactly the same shade.

 

I don't know the history of how this colour got selected for use on RCAF/CAF aircraft (e.g., Argus, Aurora, Dakota, Neptune, Sea King, Tracker, and the CF-104), but it is also the same colour specified for the hulls of RCN/CAF ships. I did some comparisons to Royal Navy colours during the war and it got me to wondering if this might have been the origin of this colour for our equipment. It seems to be very close to the Admiralty colour B66, but I've never dug any further into it to see if there is a connection. If you Google up "royal navy ship colours" and search around for images of this colour you'll get an idea of how it looked. The B66 colour here didn't look too bad, but that's without comparing it to the original samples:  https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/british-royal-navy-colour-schemes

 

 

 

Thanks Steve,

 

I am somewhat familiar with this Canadian navy grey, I have been coming to Victoria and their shipyard a few times with the navy base nearby and it always struck me how different the Canadian navy "grey" was.

 

Will tinker little more with the grey for the underside. the nose cone will be black for 104705.

 

Rgds,

 

Rob

 

 

[baldwin8]

RCAF and CAF official colour photographs are always one of your best photo references. High quality film and equipment used. Random photos on the net lends to many variables such as filters etc used when shooting. 

 

Your use of Mr Color 308 does not look too bad but in my opinion needs a touch of green, but that's just me.

 

Al Scott, a retired RCAF aircrew, of Comox, BC and owner of Roundel Hobbies in Courtney, BC, produced a handout sheet of colour mixes of Humbrol colours for the various Canadian Forces aircraft. They were perfect matches but unfortunately my reference is long gone. Al was a great guy.

1 hour ago, Steve in Ottawa said:

I wouldn't recommend FS 36375 as a substitute. While being a slightly cool grey it still doesn't even come close to distinct bluish-green-grey character of Grey 501-109.

@Steve in Ottawa I would not conclude Mr Color's 308 is a perfect match for FS 36375.

 

Great build details Rob.

 

Craig

[Steve in Ottawa]

I found one photo online that shows a CF-18 (painted in 36375 on the bottom) flying alongside a CP-104 Aurora in the original white over Grey 501-109 colour scheme. Unfortunately it is of such poor quality that it's useless to use to compare the two aircraft's lower surface colours.

[Rob K.]

30 minutes ago, Steve in Ottawa said:

I found one photo online that shows a CF-18 (painted in 36375 on the bottom) flying alongside a CP-104 Aurora in the original white over Grey 501-109 colour scheme. Unfortunately it is of such poor quality that it's useless to use to compare the two aircraft's lower surface colours.

I have ordered a few more grey-green-blue-ish colors, see if we can come close with Tamiya or mr. Color. @fubar57 suggested for a weathered 501-109 to use Tamiya xf-12 IJN grey, but I ordered their IJN Green grey and a few others as well. Looking at the bottom of a jar of Tamiya XF-21 Sky, seems to open possibilities as well for a dusting on the Mr color 308 I used earlier. (It's nothing like the digital image sample)

 

We keep looking.

 

Thanks Steve and Craig

 

Rgds,

 

Rob