Beaufighter observers dorsal gun - a plea for help

[Tail-Dragon]

I'm having a problem with the dorsal (observers) gun used on Coastal Command Beaufighters, and I'm hoping someone here will be able to  help.

 

All the references I've read state that the dorsal gun was a Vickers 'K' gun, belt fed. The problem I'm having is that all the photo's/drawings I've been able to find of the 'K' gun not only show it with a drum feed, but look nothing at all like the available photo's (admittedly not great) of the Beaufighter installation. 

 

The Vickers 'K' gun

 The Beaufighter's gun

 

 

 

The plastic guns on both the 1/48 Tamiya, and the 1/48 Revell kits are cartoonish, and look nothing like the photo's.

 

Can anyone here help?

 

thanks, 

Colin

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Tail-Dragon
photo's added

[Graham Boak]

I have a strong suspicion that the aircraft may have started life with a VGO aft but this will have been replaced, as on other types, with the Browning.

[11bravo]

I still can't understand how the observer was able to manipulate this weapon.  Doesn't look like there is sufficient room to traverse it unless the guy ducks his head out of the bubble.    

[dogsbody]

These are from Terry Higgins of Aviaeology fame. 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a Browning. Earlier Beaus did have VGO's, but later one had the belt-fed Brownings.

 

 

 

Chris

[72modeler]

Here's a neat photo I found that shows the observer's hood open with the Browning .303cal gun fitted just like in the photos Chris posted. Caption stated the TFX was PL-O, NE831, from No, 144 Squadron

Mike

 

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/beaufighter/damaged-bristol-beaufighter-tf-mk-x-ne831-pl-o-of-no-144-squadron-raf-at-dallachy/

[Tail-Dragon]

Thanks very much, those are exactly what I needed,  Dogsbody, you seem to be me go-to guy for Bristol photo's!  Thanks much!

 

Colin

[dogsbody]

28 minutes ago, Tail-Dragon said:

Thanks very much, those are exactly what I needed,  Dogsbody, you seem to be me go-to guy for Bristol photo's!  Thanks much!

 

Colin

 

What other use is a retired, cranky old git good for? It's still a bit too cold for gardening and yard work and I'm still mostly self-isolating. It also keeps me away from Mrs. DB, much to her pleasure. Too much time spent in close contact with me and I'll likely find myself in a rumpled mess at the bottom of the stairs.

 

Police: Mrs., can you tell me what happened?

 

Mrs. DB : The ol' git must have tripped over the cat. 

 

 

 

Chris

[72modeler]

2 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

Mrs. DB : The ol' git must have tripped over the cat. 

That's just one more reason why I don't let Missus 72modeler look over my shoulder when I'm on Britmodeller! 

Mike

[Tail-Dragon]

1 hour ago, dogsbody said:

 

It also keeps me away from Mrs. DB, much to her pleasure. Too much time spent in close contact with me and I'll likely find myself in a rumpled mess at the bottom of the stairs.

 

Police: Mrs., can you tell me what happened?

 

Mrs. DB : The ol' git must have tripped over the cat. 

 

 

 

Chris

 My wife (SWMBO) whole heartedly supports my modelling - she gets to pretend for hours a day that she's a widow.

Not sure how long I could be lying dead in my modelling room, if it wasn't for taking the garbage out once a week!

[Seahawk]

On 5/17/2020 at 4:35 PM, Graham Boak said:

I have a strong suspicion that the aircraft may have started life with a VGO aft but this will have been replaced, as on other types, with the Browning.

Yes, the story starts with improvised solutions in the Middle East where the back portion of the cupola blister was hacked off and a VGO installed.  The TF.X had the properly engineered solution, with a Browning and proper support structure.  I think (but can't check because I am STILL away from my references) that the TF.X solution is formally referred to as a turret, with a Bristol Type designation.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Seahawk

[Blimpyboy]

On 5/18/2020 at 6:33 AM, dogsbody said:

Too much time spent in close contact with me and I'll likely find myself in a rumpled mess at the bottom of the stairs.

Aah yes, the Minister for Internal Affairs; a force of nature and not to be trifled with. It’s  heartening to see that some things are universal!

 

And, of course, the kids/grandkids will help bury the body...

[dogsbody]

2 hours ago, Blimpyboy said:

Aah yes, the Minister for Internal Affairs; a force of nature and not to be trifled with. It’s  heartening to see that some things are universal!

 

And, of course, the kids/grandkids will help bury the body...

 

More like help dispose of the corpse. My wife is a farmgirl so she " knows things " and her brother is a hunter who knows of places the authorities would never look.

 

As long as I shut up, stay near if need but not too close, as to be irritating, I'm good. My hobby room is the perfect distance.

 

 

 

Chris

[fastterry]

One option is to build a Mk10 from operation Firedog Malaya, late 50's, they took the gun out because some GIB put a few rounds through the tail section on one sortie. I guess there was no aerial opposition anyway.

TRF

[Tomas Enerdal]

If you don't any spare, detailed Brownings lying around, I can heartily reccomend GasPatch; here. 

You have to add ammo (also available from GasPatch) mounting, handgrip and spent case bag. But I'm simply awestruck with what you can do with CAD and resin these days. No need for brass barrels anymore.

(No affiliation with GasPatch)

[Selwyn]

On 5/17/2020 at 7:43 PM, dogsbody said:

These are from Terry Higgins of Aviaeology fame. 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a Browning. Earlier Beaus did have VGO's, but later one had the belt-fed Brownings.

 

 

 

Chris

Features of the Beau Browning mounting were the three Sighting rings and the extended pistol grip. The Beau rear canpy was very narrow and these features allowed the gunner to have the widest side to side field of fire. When at either maximum the gunner sighted using the side mounted rings, the extended grip ensured he could keep in control of the gun when firing in this situation. 

The problem with using the VGO gun which was at the time the RAF's standard free gun, was that the ammunition pan severely restricted gun movement  under the narrow canopy.

 

Selwyn

[Blimpyboy]

On 5/19/2020 at 9:39 AM, dogsbody said:

 

More like help dispose of the corpse. My wife is a farmgirl so she " knows things " and her brother is a hunter who knows of places the authorities would never look.

 

As long as I shut up, stay near if need but not too close, as to be irritating, I'm good. My hobby room is the perfect distance.

 

 

 

Chris

Oh dear, she didn't farm pigs, did she?

[dogsbody]

No, grain farmer, but I get where you're coming from. I grew up on a dairy/beef farm that also had pigs and chickens.

 

 

 

Chris

[Crimea River]

Here's another reference that I somehow managed to find during my build a few years back. It may have also come from Chris. Sorry I can't attribute it:

 

[dogsbody]

4 hours ago, Crimea River said:

Here's another reference that I somehow managed to find during my build a few years back. It may have also come from Chris. Sorry I can't attribute it:

 

 

Oh crap! I meant to post that one with the others above. Thanks, Andy!

 

Getting old blows dead bears.

 

 

 

Chris

[Crimea River]

Thought it was you but couldn't remember. Yeah, the bear thing.

[Tail-Dragon]

Thanks everybody for the great information and photo's

Here's my attempt at replicating what you've shown … I grafted a spare Airfix breech (from the 1/48 Hurricane) to the Tamiya barrel/mount, and added a pistol grip/trigger, and a cut down photoetch ammo belt.

What do you think ? (more details to add, of course)

 

 

[Crimea River]

What, no trigger???? 🤪

 

That looks fantastic!

[JohnT]

10 minutes ago, Crimea River said:

What, no trigger???? 🤪

 

That looks fantastic!

Of course not. Silly chap. You’d never get a horse inside a Beaufighter. Anyway Roy Rogers needed him for the next show 

 

Meantime great modelling and photos. Most useful. Britmodeller help at its best