A Questionable "What If"

[Graham Boak]

I agree that the sweepback was used on the Me262 to solve a problem of weight distribution, but the sweep angle on the Me262 is actually too small to be significant in drag reduction.  Because of its comparatively thick aerofoil its limiting Mach number is much the same as the Mustang's and less than the Spitfire's.  The principle of using it to reduce drag at high subsonic Mach numbers was however established prewar and actually presented at a conference in Italy.  It is a genuine German idea that did revolutionise (for a while) aircraft design worldwide.

 

The French actually used the Panther postwar for a while.  Failures at this stage of its design will have been caused more by the poor quality of production than design flaws.

 

There were a number of other benefits gained from German designs and designers, the Aden cannon, the Atar jet engine, and other less dramatic improvements such as the Kuchemann "carrots" on the Victor.  Just because they may have been over-rated by some is no reason to disrespect others.

[Welkin]

14 hours ago, whiskey said:

According to that video that was linked earlier the Focke Wulf factory was captured by the British in April of 1945 and the Ta-183 prototype was set for it's maiden flight the following month in May. So I would suppose there was something at some level of construction when the Brits got there.

AFAIK we don't have a model of the Miles M.52; I believe that they had started construction of the prototype before some idiot from the Air Ministry cancelled it!

[spruecutter96]

This is in answer to the earlier postings about whether a Swastika should be present on Luftwaffe models...

 

Our perception of history is a curious thing and it will always be filtered through our own standards of "right" and "wrong". Whilst I believe that the Allied conduct during the war was normally entirely justified as a response to the tyranny of the Nazis, we should always remember that British and American bombers killed hundreds-of- thousands of European civilians in those terrible years of conflict, sometimes deliberately, sometimes by accident. I am fully aware that German bombers did the same thing both in the UK and on the continent - we are extremely lucky the Luftwaffe did not devout much time or effort to developing a heavy bomber of their own, or the death-toll could have been far higher.   

 

The commander of US Strategic Bombing in Europe, General Curtis Le May, has been quoted as saying that he would have been found guilty as a war-criminal if he'd been on the losing side. For an American commanding-officer, that is an extremely perceptive statement to make. 

 

War is a horrible, squalid, disgusting and demeaning undertaking and should not be viewed as a path to glory or esteem by any politician who wages it. Isn't it strange how few politicians' offspring have ever been sent into combat? 

 

Having said all that, I believe that history should be taught with  a "warts-and-all" approach and nothing should ever be glossed-over. 

 

Having an interest in a controversial subject does not automatically mean that you are "glorifying" it and, indeed, neither are you advocating it as a righteous part of history. 

 

Chris. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by spruecutter96
Amending information.

[Lewis95]

18 hours ago, spruecutter96 said:

The commander of US Strategic Bombing in Europe, General Curtis Le May, has been quoted as saying that he would have been found guilty as a war-criminal if he'd been on the losing side. For an American commanding-officer, that is an extremely perceptive statement to make. 

Wasn't that the quote made by the general who ordered the Tokyo firebombing? May of been the same remark and a different general. I believe the ETO version was in relation to levelling a historic German town for little strategic reason other than not taking it. 

 

This discussion has started one hell of a conversation it seems. 

 

I'm fully aware of the fact that a fair few of the German designs were incredibly flawed and more than likely, the result of a few drunk designers trolling history with their concepts. 

 

However, I build these for their looks in all honesty. They look more interesting than most kits,the same as some of the Allied designs such as the Fairey Delta. I also like to have a story for them, whether they would of worked or not. I enjoy my creative writing in that regard and it's another part of the hobby for me. 

 

And quite frankly, I find Spitfires, 109s, Mustangs etc are done to death and don't interest me at all. 

[dogsbody]

5 hours ago, Lewis95 said:

Wasn't that the quote made by the general who ordered the Tokyo firebombing? May of been the same remark and a different general. I believe the ETO version was in relation to levelling a historic German town for little strategic reason other than not taking it. 

 

It was General LeMay who said it: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay

 

 

 

Chris

[whiskey]

On 5/22/2020 at 10:31 AM, Welkin said:

AFAIK we don't have a model of the Miles M.52; I believe that they had started construction of the prototype before some idiot from the Air Ministry cancelled it!

I am not sure I follow. My comment was in direct response to Mike's regarding concepts in various stages of construction during the time that the factories were captured by the Allies.

[Welkin]

I probably didn't express myself clearly.

If an airframe was started and abandoned during construction or never flew, is it a What if or a genuine aircraft?

If it was only a paper design or a mock-up, is it just a What if?

[Graham Boak]

Real aircraft or not, if you are modelling an aircraft in a shape ot scheme that did not exist on that aircraft in real life, then it is a What-If in my book.  If you model it is a plain grey, say, with no markings or something completely generic, then this is a representation of a design much as a manufacturer's model or mock-up.  Whether the original was finished or not, the model is not "pretending" to be something it wasn't.  

 

However, if there are any rules for such things, I haven't seen them.  Perhaps there are some laid down by the Special Interest Group of IPMS-UK?  

 

The origin, I guess, lies in finishing the question "What if.. (something happened)…"  and creating a model to match.  So it could be the extension of WW2 to 1950, although that would take a considerable leap of imagination, or just putting an aircraft into production when it had been rejected.   Alternative realities - the borderlines between these and total fantasies are left to the individual, probably wisely.

[Lewis95]

17 hours ago, dogsbody said:

 

It was General LeMay who said it: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay

 

 

 

Chris

Ah i stand corrected!

[wombat]

The swastika debate...hadn’t even occurred to me until I returned to the hobby and caught up with it. It’s emotive and not always rational. I want accuracy so will put them on, but having ordered the aftermarket set the sight of a sheet full of swastikas gave me a shudder. I’ll still use them,  but the sheet is filed away under plain wrapper! Meanwhile the wife is mildly offended by the Finnish blue swastika even after I explained...  

 

the red red star has no such impact despite the millions slaughtered by Stalin.

 

equally I have a strange urge to model a tornado with a we177 but feel nauseous at the idea of someone hanging a chemical bomb off a model...go figure...

[Guy H]

Having returned to the hobby during lockdown I built a replica of the 2CV i own. Next I bought  a 1/72 Aifix spit MK1 and an Arma hobby 1/72 Hurricane and to complete my BoB set a Tamiya 109E. 

Spitfire nearly done and turning to 109. Kit plans show blank white squares and decal numbers where the swastikas go,(all the other decals are drawn in) but they are supplied on the sheet. 

So in the context of building a BoB set for my own amusement, memory lane, how old was I when I filled a 109 with cotton wool and methalated spirit and shot it down? I will add the swastikas. But if I joined a club where they should not be displayed of if there were rules at Telford I would understand and comply.