A Questionable "What If"

[JWM]

I can understand doing for reasons models of the  prototypes or  projects, which were never finished etc. Just to show some ideas of airplanes construction, which from some reasons were not materialized in a real airplane (political, financial etc.). I have much less understanding  for models, which illustrates the history, which never happend. Maybe it is just about the taste... There is a kind of frustration which emanates from "what if" history and I do not like this kind of feelings... 

Cheers

J-W

 

[Black Knight]

What-ifs aren't everyone's cup of tea / coffee / capochino / beer / real ale. . . . . uhh, where was I ?

Oh, yes.

What ifs, aren't for every one, just as I do not like building 1/35 AFVs, nor build 'egg' planes nor Gundam.

If we all built the same the Tables at SMW, Telford would look rather boring

 

PS. I found this one again

A Boer War Steam Powered Track Laying Artillery Tractor, or SPTLAT

This was one I had numerous discussions with a person trying to convince him that it was made up as well as my story on how it came about

[Welkin]

No mojo - build Lego!

Works for me!

[Lewis95]

Well I forgot to check this topic for a little bit and hell apparently broke loose! 

 

Back to the topic.... 

 

I've decided against the black scheme and diorama which would of shown just how manipulative propaganda is as a whole. Mainly due to the fact that the kit is a pig of a build and black schemes more challenging than this kit deserves. I don't have the artistic skill to show this diorama as I want to or the subtlety to get the message of it across which was simply, anti propaganda. 

 

The new plan and narrative is as follows: 

 

The year is 1957. The war, whilst finishing a long time ago, is still fresh in the minds of those who lived through it. 

 

In the years following the war, Kurt Tank of the Focke Wulf company, accepted an offer off of the British instead of Argentina, to bring some of his designs to life and further British knowledge of aerodynamics and aircraft manufacturing. 

 

The latest project to roll off of the production line is the Ta183. Designed during the War, the Russians acquired the designs and wind tunnel models and accelerated their own work. Namely, the Mig 15 and 17F "Fresco".

 

This example features the infamous black/grey camouflage of a RAF aggressor. The aggressors utilised German Luftwaffe markings whilst trainers utilised traditional RAF colours. 

 

 

 

[ReccePhreak]

When I get back to working on my AMTech 1/48 Ta183, I will be converting it to an Aufklärer (Photo reconnaissance) version, of course. It's the bottom image.

Mods, you can delete the image if it violates your policies.

Larry

[Lewis95]

10 minutes ago, ReccePhreak said:

When I get back to working on my AMTech 1/48 Ta183, I will be converting it to an Aufklärer (Photo reconnaissance) version, of course. It's the bottom image.

Mods, you can delete the image if it violates your policies.

Larry

Very tidy. 

 

I did see an option available to convert the 1/72 PM Model version into the Lorin version. Effectively adds turbofans/jets to the tail plane. 

[Sturmovik]

I've built two of Academy's Ta 183s, one in Argentinian colours and the other as Erich Hartmann's machine.

Hope me uploading photos of those two models will help you with your PM Models kit:

[whiskey]

I've always liked the Ta-183 design. It's much appealing to me versus the MiG-15. Has sort of the "snub-nosed fighter" look to it that's I've always found interesting. I haven't a kit in my stash but ever since AMTech originally produced theirs I've always wanted a couple. Painting it in overall black would look very menacing I believe. If you really wanted to do something cool then just paint it up in one of the Luftwaffe's night fighter schemes. Adding the swastikas to it is entirely up to you. I don't think it will really add anything to the model nor do I think it will take away either. Most people will look at it and just think, "meh", next please. 

 

I watched the video regarding Kurt Tank and what I found very intriguing is the continued trouble they had with all the design corrections. The MiG-15 was subsequently based off of this aircraft and they managed to get it into combat with large numbers being produced in less time that it took for Tank's team to get the fourth prototype flying. What did the Soviets do right versus the Argentinians whilst working with the same base design?

 

[Gazontipede]

Possibly because the Soviets only used the basic concept and design assumptions when TsAGI started its calculations which would lead to the MiG and La 15's. The Argentinians and Tank appear to have tried to get the original design to actually work, evidently a much tougher proposition.

IIRC about 15 years ago there was discussion on gaming forums about the Ta183 when it was added to the flight sim Il2-1946. I believe Oleg Maddox ( the game designer) commented that they put the Ta183 design parameters into the commercial computer analysis software used for designing and testing actual aircraft (I believe he worked for Sukhoi as an engineer) and discovered that the original design was an utterly unflyable deathtrap. I think the main (not the only, BTW) problem highlighted was a severe tail flutter issue that would result in the whole tailplane disintegrating at piston engine fighter speeds* unless 'science fiction' materials were used in its construction. I seem to remember the design was also said to be dangerously unstable in pitch and yaw to the point that computer FBW would practically be needed to keep it in the air at speeds below onset of tailplane flutter! I'll have to see if I can find that thread as it was well worth a read.

 

*700kmh

Edited May 21, 2020 by Gazontipede
Found speed of tailplane failure.

[qn30jEkPz7]

7 hours ago, Gazontipede said:

utterly unflyable deathtrap

Wasn't that one of the key specification criteria for pretty much every late war German advanced fighter concept? Natter etc. 

[Lewis95]

2 hours ago, LostCosmonauts said:

Wasn't that one of the key specification criteria for pretty much every late war German advanced fighter concept? Natter etc. 

Pretty much haha 

[dogsbody]

Also, the Soviets used engines that were based on British design. All details and some actual engines were given to the Russians. That probably helped with the MiG-15 design.

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Graham Boak]

It has long been my belief that the vast majority of these German project studies are simply first concept drawings, with perhaps a rapid performance estimate.  Such things as stability, handling, structures etc were then left for the adults to work out later, long before which another sketch had been made, and another....  And another draughtsman saved from conscription to the Eastern Front?  I must admit having assumed that the Ta 183 was a little further advanced - which it must have been to provide enough information to be fed into modern analysis software.  But perhaps not far enough advanced?

[Julien]

As to whiffs, the hobby is a broad one and can accommodate everyone. Not really my thing a lot o them, but I have made a couple in my time.

 

Julien

[alt-92]

3 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Also, the Soviets used engines that were based on British design.

The RD-45/VK-1 was basically a copy of the Nene that was exported (40) to the USSR.
And the Soviets made good use of the German axial-flow designs (jumo, BMW) - but they weren't the only ones, the ATAR in the Mirages had their origin in the BMW 018 design (scaled up BMW003)

[MilneBay]

16 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

It has long been my belief that the vast majority of these German project studies are simply first concept drawings, with perhaps a rapid performance estimate.  Such things as stability, handling, structures etc were then left for the adults to work out later, long before which another sketch had been made, and another....  And another draughtsman saved from conscription to the Eastern Front?  I must admit having assumed that the Ta 183 was a little further advanced - which it must have been to provide enough information to be fed into modern analysis software.  But perhaps not far enough advanced?

 Or as one modeller once called it the "Napkinwaffe". Most i.e. 99% of these strange designs were pure first concept sketches to wile away the time in bomb shelters, and most were never even subjected to any sort of aerodynamic analysis, let alone preliminary tests of models in wind tunnels. They all relied on jet engines of questionable serviceability and downright inferior or untested materials. The very very few that got as far as commencement of either a full scale mock up or prototype were usually destroyed by Allied bombs. IIRC four made it to production Ar 234, Me 262, Me 163 and the He 162, of which only the Me 262 was produced in significant numbers albeit small. And those had been in development from before the Allied bombing campaign and air superiority cranked up to overwhelming. The Ta 183 got as far as being unfinished as did the Me P.1101.

 

When one considers how long it took the Allies, with their overwhelming production and testing capability, to bring into service the Meteor, P80, and Vampire* then we can see how really imaginary and unrealistic these concept designs by the Germans were. And how far by then the Germans were divorced from the reality of the final 2 years of the war. In the end the few designs that were flying were just more fodder for Allied fighters.

 

* I left out the P59, but while that aircraft reached operational status (oddly the first US jet to achieve that) its design deficiencies were such (directional snaking, poor speed etc.) it was fit only for rather rudimentary training roles. So even it, which was an airframe built around British designed and supplied engines, demonstrates the problems besetting the revolutionary advances that jet propulsion offered and the actual time it took to overcome those.        

Edited May 22, 2020 by MilneBay
clarity

[Mike]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't there some airframes in various stages of construction at the time that the allies over-ran the factory? As you know my memory isn't even slightly good, but I'm pretty sure I've read that once or twice. Thta takes this from what-if to experimental in my book, at least for the basic design and airframe

[whiskey]

According to that video that was linked earlier the Focke Wulf factory was captured by the British in April of 1945 and the Ta-183 prototype was set for it's maiden flight the following month in May. So I would suppose there was something at some level of construction when the Brits got there.

[Graham Boak]

The P.1011 as certainly well advanced and far beyond the "napkin" stage, as was the Gotha P.60 which had replaced the cancelled Horten 229.  Others certainly existed in at least an early design stage.  Just a lot fewer than fondly imagined could ever have reached service in 1946!  However, I always thought that it was the Russians who captured the Fw factories, and in view of the lack of photographs of late prototypes of the Ta.152 and other types, including the Ta.183, this seems most likely to me.   I'll believe a near-finished prototype of the Ta.183 when I see a convincing photograph.  If nothing else, seeing what the Russians actually did finish from among the German prototypes, that would seem to be a very obvious omission.

 

Whereas the Arado was only built in small numbers, and perhaps also the Me.163, there were large numbers of the Me.262 built in the underground workshops run by the SS, and with the He.162 was the subject of a massive programme.  Fortunately for its pilots, the He.162 only saw service in small numbers, for that was seriously flawed aerodynamically.

[MilneBay]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

The P.1011 as certainly well advanced and far beyond the "napkin" stage, as was the Gotha P.60 which had replaced the cancelled Horten 229.  Others certainly existed in at least an early design stage.  Just a lot fewer than fondly imagined could ever have reached service in 1946!  However, I always thought that it was the Russians who captured the Fw factories, and in view of the lack of photographs of late prototypes of the Ta.152 and other types, including the Ta.183, this seems most likely to me.   I'll believe a near-finished prototype of the Ta.183 when I see a convincing photograph.  If nothing else, seeing what the Russians actually did finish from among the German prototypes, that would seem to be a very obvious omission.

 

Whereas the Arado was only built in small numbers, and perhaps also the Me.163, there were large numbers of the Me.262 built in the underground workshops run by the SS, and with the He.162 was the subject of a massive programme.  Fortunately for its pilots, the He.162 only saw service in small numbers, for that was seriously flawed aerodynamically.

 Which is precisely what I said if you read it. Napkinwaffe describes the vast majority of them all including the Ta 183 and the Me P.1011 - but no flight test equals no real proof of effectiveness. And even if the flight test was managed they would still need a year of test flying and ironing out the problems before they got to production. 

 

Model makers fall all over these imaginary sketches and build wonderful back stories about Luft46 without any understanding of the aerodynamic issues involved or the demonstrated over reach of German jet engine construction. Take a look at some of the proposed "developments" of the Ta 183 just for aerodynamic and structural hilarity - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Super_Lorin . First attempt at violent manoeuvre and the thing would shed its engines.

 

And for a good chuckle the coal burning Lippisch P.13a, - the only fighter that may have required a fireman. 😉 

 

One need only look at how long the latest wunderkind of the US aviation industry the F35 has taken to achieve rather limited test status, and that's working in the always highly charged atmosphere of the US aerospace industry, to get a grasp of the reality. It seems like whole generations have been born and died since that project got underway.  And that's not in a working environment where your design team faced a continual day and night bombing assault. I suppose these strange imaginary designs were a way of relieving the daily threat of death or injury. Best way to treat the Napkinwaffe is to accept it as a joke - which it was. 

 

Fritz "Hans!!! Look what I've just designed"

 

Hans "What is it?"

 

Fritz "It's the Tank Ta 232, it's revolutionary combination of forward swept wings, combined with a V2 which uses non-strategic materials like papier mache, old fireworks and will fly at 4,000 kph and carry a crew of three" 

 

Hans "Wunderbar Fritz, you will win the Knight's cross with Oak Leafs and Schnitzel, it will be the ultimate New York bomber"

 

Fritz "Stuff the Knight's Cross just give me a decent feed of schnitzel, oh hell, here come the bombers again!!!"  

Edited May 22, 2020 by MilneBay

[Graham Boak]

I apologise if I misunderstood you, but I did think that you were lumping all these types together where a more nuanced approach was fairer.  I'm not yet convinced that the Ta.183 was as advanced as the P.1011, but that could be a lack of knowledge on my part.  Perhaps the history of the He.162 shows that aircraft can be placed into production without any (or a very limited) period of development and trials, but that still requires including significantly more detailed design work before design and assembly of jigs and tools let alone any production of parts from these, let alone any actual service work-up.  

 

The basic contradiction, as I see it, is that the proliferation of these ideas was driven by the dire emergency Germany was in; yet such rapid design, manufacture and rush into service requires a working economy and access to materials that no longer existed.  Hence, of course, the need to chase unproven technologies that appear most odd to those lacking such incentives.  To obtain such an economy would require changes in Germany's circumstances much earlier; yet had this been so then the normal processes of design and development would have continued and this rapid proliferation would never have happened.  Or at least no more than is usual for the design companies of every major aircraft-producing nation.

 

But they remain interesting (if sometimes amusing) in themselves as design studies.  Germany isn't the only nation with aircraft that should be paraded as examples of how NOT to do it.  Some of which are popular modelling subjects...  

[MilneBay]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

I apologise if I misunderstood you, but I did think that you were lumping all these types together where a more nuanced approach was fairer.  I'm not yet convinced that the Ta.183 was as advanced as the P.1011, but that could be a lack of knowledge on my part.  Perhaps the history of the He.162 shows that aircraft can be placed into production without any (or a very limited) period of development and trials, but that still requires including significantly more detailed design work before design and assembly of jigs and tools let alone any production of parts from these, let alone any actual service work-up.  

 

The basic contradiction, as I see it, is that the proliferation of these ideas was driven by the dire emergency Germany was in; yet such rapid design, manufacture and rush into service requires a working economy and access to materials that no longer existed.  Hence, of course, the need to chase unproven technologies that appear most odd to those lacking such incentives.  To obtain such an economy would require changes in Germany's circumstances much earlier; yet had this been so then the normal processes of design and development would have continued and this rapid proliferation would never have happened.  Or at least no more than is usual for the design companies of every major aircraft-producing nation.

 

But they remain interesting (if sometimes amusing) in themselves as design studies.  Germany isn't the only nation with aircraft that should be paraded as examples of how NOT to do it.  Some of which are popular modelling subjects...  

Yes by early 1945 it was a bit late to undertake any projects that couldn't be completed in a few weeks. Not with 3 million or so very upset Russians about 10 kilometres to the east and a very large number of equally cross British and Americans a few kilometres to the west. Hitler and most of the OKW were either busy deciding which designer cyanide capsule suited their fashion sense, or which American army unit was the closest so they could surrender to it. While Kurt Tank was booking seats on the first available aircraft to Spain as was Willy Messerschmitt.

 

I suspect that the remaining design staff, those whose drawing boards still had legs to stand on, were spending time worrying about food and passing the time by doodling imaginary designs on what little paper was left and then flight testing the design by folding these into paper darts. Of course when the Allies finally rolled in they discovered all these doodles and preserved them as evidence of the advanced state of German aircraft design. Which was good for the designers because on the strength of these they got shipped off to America or Russia to be well fed and housed, which was far better than taking up a new career in recycling bricks. So the fact that none of these Luft46 designs actually ever got built is probably self-evident given their origins and the depth of thought that went into them. 😉

 

But as you point out it wasn't only the Germans who came up with these flights of fancy. One need only look at some of the projects studied during the 50s as the Cold War got going. The saving grace with a lot of the stuff was that they never ever got near to the stage when some poor hapless test pilot was asked to actually fly one. 

 

Edit: I forgot the Bachem Ba 349, that death trap which on its first test flight (vertical) killed the pilot. Not a promising beginning for a not very promising idea to begin with.     

Edited May 22, 2020 by MilneBay

[alt-92]

1 hour ago, MilneBay said:

But as you point out it wasn't only the Germans who came up with these flights of fancy. One need only look at some of the projects studied during the 50s as the Cold War got going.

I'm willing to bet a good 60% of those projects (across the board, East and West) were based on or inspired by the very same Germans, but now working for others.
As a small reminder, The SNECMA ATAR range of engines were designed by ex-BMW staff. ATAR itself stands for Atelier technique aéronautique de Rickenbach - in the French Occupied zone of Germany directly post-war.
 

[elger]

33 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

I'm willing to bet a good 60% of those projects (across the board, East and West) were based on or inspired by the very same Germans, but now working for others.
 

No. German engineers had a relatively small contribution to post-war technological developments. You have to keep in mind that on a fundamental level, Nazi-Germany was deeply anti-science. There was a massive brain drain in Germany after the Nazis came to power (https://physicstoday.scitation.org/do/10.1063/PT.6.4.20180926a/full/). Nazis celebrated anti-intellectualism, were against art, creativity, and true freedom of thought - things you need to foster a climate in which innovation and science can truly thrive. This is important context.

 

For example, the hugely successful F-86 Sabre was based on the FJ-1 Fury - the only thing that might traced back to German developments is the innovation of the swept wing of the 262, which was kind of an accidental discovery when they were playing around trying to solve problems with weight distribution.

 

It's said the Gloster Meteor would lose in a dogfight with a 262. That might be true, in theory, but that's assuming the 262 could get off the ground. At least the Meteor wouldn't explode if you opened up the throttle a bit too fast.

 

Think of the Centurion tank - the most important British tank post-war; its development already started in 1943. The couple of Panther tanks Britain tried to test for their performance immediately after the war couldn't complete the test track because they kept breaking down.

 

Unlike popular belief, the AK-47 was not based on the StG-44.

 

Even Wernher von Braun's contributions to the space program are generally a bit exaggerated.

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by elger

[alt-92]

I was more thinking of the 'failures', and lesser known Soviet designs - but fair point.