A Questionable "What If"

[alt-92]

15 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

It can't all be just lack of knowledge, surely? 

Probably more to do with that fascination with 'German engineering'* and a bit of fantasy added. 

 

Imperial Roman F-16's you say? Hmm. 
Add an Armorican Rafale M and I'd say Airfix might have a What-If dogfight double** right there

 

^{*which is a bit overrated anyway}

^{**probably not for this subsection then}

Edited May 16, 2020 by alt-92

[elger]

16 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

Probably more to do with that fascination with 'German engineering'* and a bit of fantasy added. 

 

Imperial Roman F-16's you say? Hmm. 
Add an Armorican Rafale M and I'd say Airfix might have a What-If dogfight double** right there

 

^{*which is a bit overrated anyway}

^{**probably not for this subsection then}

yes - see the link in my signature

 

[gingerbob]

47 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

or more realistic (RAF test example of the XP-55?)

 

Hmm... perhaps I've just found a use for my Czech Models XP-55!  RAF name "Curtiss Digit"?

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Lewis95 said:

That's gonna make for some good reading material later! 

you may find this interesting as well,   if the '95'  is your date of birth,  you probably won't have seen this, as it was made in 1995

 

Quote

Part 1. 'On the Desperate Edge of Now'[edit]

This episode, broadcast on 30 May 1995,[1] examines how the various national ideals and memories of the Second World War were effectively buried, rewritten and manipulated in the Cold War era, only to violently resurface later with events such as the protests of 1968, the emergence of the Red Army Faction, and the turmoil of the Yugoslav Wars.

For Germany, this process began at the Nuremberg Trials, where the use of the film The Nazi Plan was intended to reveal the criminality of the Nazi state, and attempts were made to prevent defendants—principally Hermann Göring—from providing any rational or contextualized argument for their actions during the war. Subsequently, however, bringing lower-ranking Nazis to justice was all but forgotten in the interests of maintaining West Germany as an important new ally in the Cold War. For the Allies, faced with a new enemy in the Soviet Union, there was a need to portray World War II as a crusade of pure good against pure evil, even if this meant creating a mismatch by denying the memories of the individual soldiers who had actually done the fighting and knew it to have been far more ambiguous.

The title of this episode comes from a veteran's description of the uncertainty of survival in combat. A number of American veterans related how, years later, they found themselves plagued with previously-suppressed memories of the brutal things they had seen and done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Living_Dead_(TV_series)

 

film here

 

 

Hope of interest

[Giorgio N]

21 hours ago, JWM said:

The red comes simply from socialism tradition, do not forget that Nazi trem is a marriage of nationalism and socialism.

Regarding whatif  - I have more undertanding for constructing model of never constructed machines if they are in a prototype livery (a silver, for instance). Just as a kind of commemoration of some constructor technical ideas which never had chance for materialization in real thing. But it is difficult to me when someone plays with alternate history  and do model in 100% fictional unit colours etc. I am suspicious what motivation stays behind it? ...

Cheers

J-W

 

Hitler himself stated "The red expressed the social idea undelying the movement. The white the national idea. The swastika signified the mission allotted to us-the struggle for the victory of Aryan mankind.."

So yes, the colour red is related to their "socialist" views... at the same time however the use of black/white/red symbols was common within far right movements in Germany as these were the colour of the former imperial flag that had been abolished by the Weimar republic in favour of the black/gold/red flag. One of the first measures introduced by the new Nazi government in 1933 was the reintroduction of the flag in the imperial colours

[Graham Boak]

1 hour ago, alt-92 said:

Probably more to do with that fascination with 'German engineering'* and a bit of fantasy added. 

 

^{*which is a bit overrated anyway}

Glad I saw that.  I was going to say Asdic/sonar, centimetric radar, proximity fuses, long range escort fighters, the B-29, the atom bomb... Perhaps a couple of other things.

[Giorgio N]

21 hours ago, Johnv said:

Nice idea, sounds like a good project. One has to wonder if the ancient tribes aren't

a bit peeved for Dolph stealing their religious symbol for an idiotic 12 year reign. Personally

I see nothing wrong, it does not represent any one idealism.---John

 

I dont' think that those tribes would have been disappointed on the contrary they would have probably been happy to know that thousands years later someone would have reused such symbols.

We should keep in mind that the fascination with the swastika and other ancient symbols was not just the personal interest of some mad man who happened to get to control a big country, it was part of a phenomenon that was much more deeply rooted in the culture of the era and of the previous few decades.

Interest for ancient cultures had flourished in the late 19th Century and among the results was the interest of many to see parallels between these cultures and the current ones, mostly with the goal of glorifying their countries through some form of link. Links that were more or less historicallly accurate, usually much less... Such interest in ancient cultures was very strong in Germany but Britain, France and other countries were not immune at all, far from it !

The idea that Europeans, and Northern European in particular, descended from a superior race had already been expressed in the late 1840's by the French Arthur de Gobineu and in the later decades spread all around Europe and the US. Really it was a view that was very fitting to an era of colonial conquests and helped giving a "moral" value to a phenomenon that was merely aimed at improving the European countries economic power. All European countries a the the end of the 19th Century were more or less imbued with ideas of racial superiority and many scholars spent their time finding traces of this supposed superiority in the races of the past... among these the Aryans. The same years also saw a large number of "secret societies" that made reference to such cultures and this resulted in a lot of studies on ancient symbols and their power.

Hitler simply followed this general path and put together a number of elements to create a new concept of Germany and its place in History and by consequence in the world. A concept that appealed to the people of a country that had suffered a crushing defeat, a humiliating peace treaty and years of economic problems. He proposed not only a political platform, but a new culture that drew from the glory of the past to build a new glorious future. Among the symbols of this new culture, was the swastika, a symbol of an ancient superior race that still lived within German blood.

Really from this point of view Hitler didn't really do anything much different from what happened in other countries. The parallel with Mussolini and the rediscovery of the Italians as heirs of the Roman Empire is immediate but really similar views were common in all European countries. Even the concept of descending from a superior race may seem to us something coming from a mad man, but in those years it was very common. Afterall Hitler's idea that the Germans had to conquer their "lebensraum" at the expense of the inferior races is not much different from the idea of the "white man's burden" glorified by Kipling and common in all colonial powers at the turn of the Century.

 

So, what would have these tribes thought ? Most likely they'd have been happy ! Here is many thousands years later someone who consider us a superior race and wants to follow our glorious path ! Not bad a heritage...

Of course none of these tribes would have worried about Hitlers behaviour... after all in ancient times the idea that the strongest destroyed the weak was normal.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Giorgio N

[elger]

Another very good documentary from the 90s is Jonathan Meades' Jerry Building looking at the subject from an architecture point of view - also going into more of the philosophical origins of the Swastika and the whole absurd pseudo Nordic history the nazis were so fond of:

 

 

[Giorgio N]

20 hours ago, Lewis95 said:

 

Ahh, that's interesting to know actually. I always assumed black as I thought that was another key part of the German imagery. Albeit, most of my knowledge there is from Panzer regiments with the pink trim. 

 

 

It is a common view today, thanks in no small part to countless Hollywood movies.. and in part to the imagery of postwar neo-nazi and neo-fascist groups, that have mostly elected black as their colour.

In movies the bad German guy always wears a black uniform, inspired by the SS black uniforms of course. Even if these were generally not used during the war, being replaced  by grey uniforms.

Interestingly Hitler himself never wore the black uniform, he always wore the brown party uniform in peacetime. Uniform that was actually brown by accident, not by design: in the early NSDAP days they managed to acquire a lot of brown uniforms that were supposed to be sent to the colonial forces. The uniforms were brown for that reason and then became part of the party imagery.

When war broke out, Hitler wore a grey army uniform, as he wanted to be seen as the first soldier of his Country. A black uniform would have meant showing affiliation to one single entity within the party (the SS), but as Furher his image had to be above all party and state organisations. The man sure knew symbols and how to use them !

 

[Giorgio N]

Last post on the matter for today, I promise.... some may find this stuff interesting but I don't want to bore most of you guys to death ! 🤣

 

The fascination with ancient cultures, their symbolism and the idea of an ancient master race has seen a strong resurgence in the last few years, sometimes it's hidden and sometimes it's openly displayed even if most may not notice it... but just think of one single word: vikings !

Everything "viking" is a big seller today and everybody seems to love the tales of these fierce nordic warriors. TV serials, books, videogames, Youtube channels, even restaurants and recipes. And since companies started offering DNA testing to find someone's heritage, a lot of people take the test hoping to hear something like "you have X percent of Norse blood". Is it just a fad of the moment ? Yes and no...

Among my interest is music and a few years ago I discovered the existance of a number of folk-metal bands from different countries with a strong "viking vibe". Most are from around the North and Baltic Sea, from Scandinavia to Germany and further East to Russia. Lyrics are generally sung in their own language but some also use English. Most lyrics are about the myths and past of their countries and the ancient norse culture plays a big part: Odin, Thor, ancient peoples, sagas, tales of heroes and demons. In part this is just folklore, in part it's a will to go back to a purer and better past, to remind their contemporary fellow countrymen that this was their culture.

Now a rock band is just a rock band and most of them just want to make good music. Some musicians are also historians or reenactors and combine two passions by singing about these old peoples. However others are part of the so-called "volkisch" movements, that often thread a very fine line between nationalism and suprematism.

It's also interesting that Neo-pagan religions, while still a small niche, are today the fastest growing in Europe. Again there are different approaches to the ancient norse gods and myths, some of these groups see them as manifestation of nature, others however see them as a return to the days when these warriors ruled the world (even if they actually didn't historically).

Religion or rock bands or simple fascination with the vikings, most are just into these things because they find them interesting or cool, however there is a section within those interested in these things that are following exactly the same path that Hitler took with his symbolism, that is trying to use the peoples of the past to prove their supremacy over other peoples.

 

I should again make clear that not all these bands or groups have anything to do with nazi or suprematist ideas, most don't and some have explicitly expressed anti-nazi opinions. At the same time some are ambiguous and a few have explicitly expressed pretty extreme ideas.

In any case, some of them are pretty good, maybe nothing to rival the true greats of rock but interesting stuff to listen nonetheless.

 

 

[alt-92]

15 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

However others are part of the so-called "volkisch" movements, that often thread a very fine line between nationalism and suprematism.

It's also interesting that Neo-pagan religions, while still a small niche, are today the fastest growing in Europe. Again there are different approaches to the ancient norse gods and myths, some of these groups see them as manifestation of nature, others however see them as a return to the days when these warriors ruled the world (even if they actually didn't historically).

Guess who won't be standing first in line for the Ättestupa 

As always with such revivalist movements, the tendency is to cherry-pick the 'nice' bits and leave out the disadvantages.
 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by alt-92
details..

[alt-92]

Back to the topic at hand, and weirdly enough incorporating the above discussion:

 

Kurt Tank - the designer of the Ta-183 -  and Reimar Horten - yes that one - were also involved in the Argentinian Pulqui 2.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by alt-92

[Lewis95]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

It is a common view today, thanks in no small part to countless Hollywood movies

This is very true and I will hands up admit that I think that that has had an effect on my decision to incorporate black as the main colour. I do, however, like black as a color providing it can work in the setting it's in. I almost purchased the Airfix 1/48 Spitfire just to build the black nightfighter variant recently. 

 

As I've also mentioned above (I think), one of the strongest "alt history" influences I have seen are the Wolfenstein games where Black, Silver and Red are very prominent. However, this is probably one of the most far fetched games you could imagine. Think Duke Nukem. If video games are your thing then I would highly recommend you check it out as the game is a fantastic one. 

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Among my interest is music and a few years ago I discovered the existance of a number of folk-metal bands from different countries with a strong "viking vibe". Most are from around the North and Baltic Sea, from Scandinavia to Germany and further East to Russia. Lyrics are generally sung in their own language but some also use English. Most lyrics are about the myths and past of their countries and the ancient norse culture plays a big part: Odin, Thor, ancient peoples, sagas, tales of heroes and demons. In part this is just folklore, in part it's a will to go back to a purer and better past, to remind their contemporary fellow countrymen that this was their culture.

Off topic here but if you like folk-metal then check out some of the "cheesier" sub-genres/bands such as Alestorm (pirate metal) and Gloryhammer (Scottish and completely mental when you see the lyrics metal) . If you like the heavier stuff then Amon Amarth are brilliant. Another fantastic band who focus on warfare and tales of war are Sabaton. Their Great War album is fantastic and I actually found myself learning more than I thought I would from their music.

2 hours ago, alt-92 said:

Attestüp

I learnt a new word today..... I think. 

[Lewis95]

2 hours ago, alt-92 said:

Back to the topic at hand, and weirdly enough incorporating the above discussion:

 

Kurt Tank - the designer of the Ta-183 -  and Reimar Horten - yes that one - were also involved in the Argentinian Pulqui 2.

That was quite interesting to watch actually. Thanks for sharing! 

[MilneBay]

Aaaah the annual question. The reality is that if the law of a country restricts or bans public display of symbols or any other thing then if you reside in that country you either obey or take the consequences.

 

I started building models well over 60 years ago.  I have built models with swastikas on both German and Finnish aircraft. Aircraft with red stars both Russian and from other communist countries and there have been several Curtiss Jennys which had the US red star marking adopted by Pershing in 1916. There are British and Commonwealth roundels, US stars and bars, Japanese Hinomarus and all sorts of different national crosses, circles, triangles and what have you.

 

I understand that any one of these may be offensive to some people and equally the same marking may not - I build the models and give them the appropriate markings.

 

But I am alive to the fact that the swastika on the tail of my Luftwaffe aircraft while just a historically correct insignia to me, would have a much more traumatic significance to a survivor of Auchswitz. That is the reality of political and national symbols. Just as a red star may have a traumatic meaning to a survivor of the Gulag, or the Hinomaru to a survivor of Changi, Bataan or the Burma railroad.

 

It's a complex and sometimes painful history we have and there is no escaping the effects that it has. You cannot suppress the past, either its good or its evil. To do so prevents us from understanding what benefit the good brings and what horrors the evil brings. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by MilneBay

[elger]

I've seen some of his stuff, but to be honest Mark Felton strikes me as someone whose stuff is just a bit too "Wehraboo" for me. What's a Wehraboo? "A history or alternate history fan who is firmly entrenched in the belief that Nazi Germany's Wehrmacht was the best military in history, without a single flaw. Effectively, a Wehraboo is any obsessive Wehrmacht fanboy/fangirl who doesn't like historical facts getting in the way of his militaristic fantasies".

 

The definition of Wehraboos on Urbandictionary includes the following description, slightly edited by me to clarify the main features:

 

Quote

While there aren't a set of universal traits, a few themes will crop up:

• A belief that the German Armed Forces had superior technology, were better trained and had better doctrine than anyone else during WW2.
   
• Will blame Hitler's defeat on factors beyond the Armed Forces control.
   
• Takes most of their information and "sources" from the History Channel, tank/ship/plane based combat games (eg, War Thunder) and Podcasts on the internet (eg, Dan Carlin).
   
• A belief that "The wrong side won the war." (NOTE: this is a little rarer than the other points)

These kinds of videos - also clearly seen in Felton's work - often contain the tropes "If the Germans just got their act together and mass produced [insert name of Super Weapon] it would have changed the war in German's favor" and "We now know that the Germans were ahead of the allies in most military technology during WW2".

 

The phenomenon of Wehraboos is especially interesting in light of the Myth of the Clean Wehrmacht I mentioned earlier. From the Wikipedia article I linked before; emphasis added:

 

Quote

German historian Wolfram Wette wrote that most Anglo-American military historians have a strong admiration for the "professionalism" of the Wehrmacht, and tended to write about the Wehrmacht in a very admiring tone, largely accepting the version of history set out in the memoirs of former Wehrmacht leaders. Wette suggested this "professional solidarity" had something with the fact that for a long time most military historians in the English-speaking world tended to be conservative former Army officers who had a natural sympathy with conservative former Wehrmacht officers, whom they saw as men much like themselves. The picture of highly "professional" Wehrmacht committed to Prussian values that were allegedly inimical to Nazism while displaying super-human courage and endurance against overwhelming odds, especially on the Eastern Front, does appeal to a certain type of historian. Wette described Halder as having a "decisive influence in West Germany in the 1950s and 1960s on the way the history of the Second World War was written".

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by elger

[gingerbob]

Having abandoned a comment that was too dangerously going into "politics" territory, I'm just going to say that this thread, while following the general trajectory such ones always do, has been very even-keeled and has brought up some very interesting things to ponder (though I think I'll take a pass on any regional "folk-metal" bands!)

[Lewis95]

This post is going dangerously somewhere not intended. The scope of my question was regarding a model and the answers have been very informative and even the off topic ones to an extent.

2 hours ago, gingerbob said:

though I think I'll take a pass on any regional "folk-metal" bands!

Some folk metal bands are actually quite hilarious 😛

[gingerbob]

Every good conversation goes completely unforeseen places!

[Lewis95]

2 hours ago, gingerbob said:

Every good conversation goes completely unforeseen places!

That is true. I'm just used to seeing these kind of conversations ending up nasty and that's not something I want to see happen here. 

[dogsbody]

So, anyway. Lewis95, build your kit and paint it up any way you want. It's a Whif, so no one can say it's wrong. If they don't like the look of it, they can just move onto the next topic, without making any comments about it.

 

 

 

Chris

[Lewis95]

15 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

So, anyway. Lewis95, build your kit and paint it up any way you want. It's a Whif, so no one can say it's wrong. If they don't like the look of it, they can just move onto the next topic, without making any comments about it.

 

 

 

Chris

Seems to be the general concensus! 

[Guest]

On 5/16/2020 at 3:38 AM, Britman said:

The tirrany of the Nazi period in German history will never go away. It is  in the history books and on film for all to read and see and to omit the relevant markings of the day on our models is quite honestly pathetic. How many war films have there been that are plastered in images of undesirable periods in human history. And whilst we are having this  dialogue in our free world pretending it didn't happen does us no service.  I can fully understand that walking down the road waving a large offensive flag is not acceptable and quite rightly in sensitive parts of the world , should be illegal. Waving my Messerschmitt  around my head would hardly have the same impact on opinion by others, except maybe "look at the man with his toy plane" History is about learning from one's mistakes not pretending it never happened. Sorry if I got carried away there.

 

Keith

WOW---what about the "Trail Of Tears"? I am of German and Native American DNA. I think

it all boils down to sh*t happens, but thats just me.---John

[Bedders]

Please mods close this down

[dogsbody]

12 minutes ago, Bedders said:

Please mods close this down

 

Do you want this whole political/historical discussion closed down, as it's gone on too frikkin' long, along with Lewis95's proposed build, or just the political/historical stuff?

 

I want to see Lewis95's kit get built. The other 85% of this topic can be eliminated.

 

 

 

Chris