A Questionable "What If"

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

16 minutes ago, SAT69 said:

I'll go along with the current mind set that seems to have taken hold in the plastic modeling world: Build what you want, the way you want and have fun!

Enough said as thats pretty much it.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[JohnT]

1 hour ago, alt-92 said:

Funny how this almost never comes up with WWII Japanese or Soviet subjects.

If I recall there was a recent thread on the use of the Japanese rising sun flag/ motif and it not being on the decal sheet of a Hellcat I think. It came from a Far Eastern manufacturer, Hobbyboss maybe. 
 

The discussion that followed made reference to the use of that flag by the Japanese in WW2 as opposed to the national flag of a red orb on a white background. So it’s use has been canvassed in much the same way as the Nazi swastika. 
 

I think some Soviet markings have also been mentioned in past discussions but pretty much in passing while debating the “usual suspect”. 
 

what I have never seen is a discussion on the use of the Italian National markings incorporating the fasces emblem from Ancient Rome. That’s the origin of the word fascist after all. I am sure though it probably has somewhere. 
 

Personally I am an Oliver Cromwell type. Make the model and paint it warts and all. That however is from the perspective of a UK national who didn’t experience the horror of Nazi Germany. If I was a post war German my opinion might be quite different and I respect that too

 

 

PS. Just a thought - if you intend to make a point why not do it in a diorama but then make it all derelict and abandoned as a bad idea on which backs have been turned?

[alt-92]

47 minutes ago, SAT69 said:

From what I've read, many German pilots were anti-Nazi but deeply patriotic regarding their homeland.

I know of a respected younger historian who is writing her post-doctorate atm which deals with that specific subject matter.

She doesn't quite agree with that. 
You didn't get far without a party membership if you wanted to join the flying clubs (or the LW for that matter). There are always well-publicised exceptions, but I'm rather looking forward to her publication.

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by alt-92
double quote

[Giorgio N]

The use of red was very common in Nazi imagery as red was part of the NSDAP symbol-. and red was of course part of the German national flag. Reasons why it was standard for both military and civilian German aircraft during the Nazi regime to carry a black swastika within a white field over a red band on the tail, at least until war started. This kind of marking would have likely returned after the war had the regime survived, so nothing unusual in adding something similar, was a standard German marking afterall.

The use of black for propaganda purpose however was not particularly common in Nazi Germany and films of Nazi rallies and ceremonies show much more red than black. Black was the colour chosen by the SS for their uniforms in 1932 and this colour is often associated to Nazi Germany for this reason... even if the black uniform was short lived  and much less common than believed. But I guess that after the war they looked "cool" and they have stuck in popular imagination. Much more common was the use of black for tank crew uniforms, although the history of these is totally separate.

Black was on the other hand a very important colour in the Italian fascist party imagery and as such was used very often at all levels in uniforms, flags and sceneries for every kind of ceremony. The use of black had come into the Party from the Army "Arditi" formations, a sort of Italian variant of the German Stosstrupp concept. Many soldiers from these units joined Mussolini's armed gangs at the end of WW1 and they carried their insignia and the black colour.

With your project being a whif you can of course choose any colour you like and a black model can sure look menacing. It's also a colour that tends to "flatten" the appearance of a model if not executed well.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Giorgio N

[Truro Model Builder]

2 hours ago, alt-92 said:

I know of a respected younger historian who is writing her post-doctorate atm which deals with that specific subject matter.

She doesn't quite agree with that. 
You didn't get far without a party membership if you wanted to join the flying clubs (or the LW for that matter). There are always well-publicised exceptions, but I'm rather looking forward to her publication.

 

I look forward to it. Nobody would admit to being a card-carrying party member after May 1945, but you had to be if you wanted to get on. Simple as.

 

And Lewis, build it as you want, and if some eejit is offended that's their problem not yours.

[JWM]

The red comes simply from socialism tradition, do not forget that "Nazi" term is a marriage of nationalism and socialism.

Regarding whatif  - I have more undertanding for constructing model of never constructed machines if they are in a prototype livery (a silver, for instance). Just as a kind of commemoration of some constructor technical ideas which never had chance for materialization in real thing. But it is difficult to me when someone plays with alternate history  and do model in 100% fictional unit colours etc. I am suspicious what motivation stays behind it? ...

Cheers

J-W

Edited May 19, 2020 by JWM

[Guest]

Nice idea, sounds like a good project. One has to wonder if the ancient tribes aren't

a bit peeved for Dolph stealing their religious symbol for an idiotic 12 year reign. Personally

I see nothing wrong, it does not represent any one idealism.---John

[dogsbody]

A couple other WhiF forums: https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php

 

                                               http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php

 

 

 

Chris

[Lewis95]

3 hours ago, JohnT said:

If I recall there was a recent thread on the use of the Japanese rising sun flag/ motif and it not being on the decal sheet of a Hellcat I think. It came from a Far Eastern manufacturer, Hobbyboss maybe. 
 

The discussion that followed made reference to the use of that flag by the Japanese in WW2 as opposed to the national flag of a red orb on a white background. So it’s use has been canvassed in much the same way as the Nazi swastika. 
 

I think some Soviet markings have also been mentioned in past discussions but pretty much in passing while debating the “usual suspect”. 
 

what I have never seen is a discussion on the use of the Italian National markings incorporating the fasces emblem from Ancient Rome. That’s the origin of the word fascist after all. I am sure though it probably has somewhere. 
 

Personally I am an Oliver Cromwell type. Make the model and paint it warts and all. That however is from the perspective of a UK national who didn’t experience the horror of Nazi Germany. If I was a post war German my opinion might be quite different and I respect that too

 

 

PS. Just a thought - if you intend to make a point why not do it in a diorama but then make it all derelict and abandoned as a bad idea on which backs have been turned?

That diorama idea sounds great. My own idea was a heavily shelled and destroyed area behind a figure with a camera. The 183 in front of an almost perfect hangar front and basically everything that would of been outside of the figures camera shot, destroyed by war. 

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

The use of black for propaganda purpose however was not particularly common in Nazi Germany and films of Nazi rallies and ceremonies show much more red than black. Black was the colour chosen by the SS for their uniforms in 1932 and this colour is often associated to Nazi Germany for this reason...

Ahh, that's interesting to know actually. I always assumed black as I thought that was another key part of the German imagery. Albeit, most of my knowledge there is from Panzer regiments with the pink trim. 

38 minutes ago, JWM said:

am suspicious what motivation stays behind it? ...

Doing something different. Nothing is more mind numbing for me than building double digits worth of the same plane. Or seeing same scheme over and over. When I built my T.11 Vampire, that was painted in the Emerald Green of the Admirals Barge scheme. Sheerly because it wasn't the same as all the others. 

 

The piece that really got me into modelling, and one I'll never forget, wasn't the 200th iteration of a Spitfire or 109. It was a full U-boat dry Dock diorama. It drew me in as it was so incredibly different and there was a story there. 

 

1 hour ago, JWM said:

I have more undertanding for constructing model of never constructed machines if they are in a prototype livery (a silver, for instance).

X-Planes are one of my preferred topics to model. They are interesting to build and make a good talking point. I do despise painting silver for some reason though. I find it very drab and dull to look at unless heavily weathered. For me, schemes such as the Berkut's black scheme are more eye-catching. 

 

I do however like to propose the "in service" liveries.

1 hour ago, JWM said:

But it is difficult to me when someone plays with alternate history  and do model in 100% fictional unit colours etc.

Alternate history is a touchy subject for some. For me personally, I love the realm for modelling and video gaming. The last story based game I truly enjoyed was actually Wolfenstein a few years ago. It's the same principle as Hot Cold War for me. That area also provides a great area for books, games etc. 

[JWM]

6 hours ago, Lewis95 said:

Alternate history is a touchy subject for some. For me personally, I love the realm for modelling and video gaming. The last story based game I truly enjoyed was actually Wolfenstein a few years ago. It's the same principle as Hot Cold War for me. That area also provides a great area for books, games etc. 

OK, it is your model, your time, money and your choices...

I think that maybe point of view about history depends on your personal experiences, maybe since I live in Poland with all consequences of that  I cannot have different, that I have....

Regards

J-W

 

[Britman]

The tirrany of the Nazi period in German history will never go away. It is  in the history books and on film for all to read and see and to omit the relevant markings of the day on our models is quite honestly pathetic. How many war films have there been that are plastered in images of undesirable periods in human history. And whilst we are having this  dialogue in our free world pretending it didn't happen does us no service.  I can fully understand that walking down the road waving a large offensive flag is not acceptable and quite rightly in sensitive parts of the world , should be illegal. Waving my Messerschmitt  around my head would hardly have the same impact on opinion by others, except maybe "look at the man with his toy plane" History is about learning from one's mistakes not pretending it never happened. Sorry if I got carried away there.

 

Keith

[TonyW]

There's a fine line between right and wrong sometimes.

 

Case in point:  I'm taking part in the Lancaster Group Build currently running. I've finished one and nearly there with another. Along the way, I've been diging out and renovating other Lancasters I have. I like Lancasters.

 

I like to display my builds with a base of some sort, or other appropriate props. The Lancaster I've finished ended up on a plain 'grass' base made from a picture frame. On the way to that, I tried a few other options. A bit of runway/dispersal got tried and so did posing the plane on some old map pages. I was given a large format 1940's map book that was falling apart. I sat the plane on a page that showed the area of England that Bomber Command flew out of and it looked pretty good. I then sat the plane on a double page spread of Germany. That look made me very uneasy indeed.

I'm fully aware of all the arguments for and against the bomber offensive and I can see things from both sides. Both are right.

The fact remains, the image of a Lancaster sat on an old map of Germany made me almost shudder. The same thing over a map of Lincolnshire/Norfolk didn't do a thing! The mind can play tricks on you.

 

If something feels wrong, it usually is. Go with what you are comfortable with.

[Lewis95]

2 hours ago, TonyW said:

 

 

If something feels wrong, it usually is. Go with what you are comfortable with

I will admit, I'm already edging away from this to another idea after seeing an Eastern Front whitewash scheme that seems rather simply to apply. I suppose I'm feeling uncomfortable as this would be the first time using a Swastika on a model. With a red band, I'm not sure if the imagery would be more offensive than the usual tail adornment. 

 

The other idea I'm toying with, is a Red Baron style as inspired by the comments further up about a sneaky ground crew repaint. 

4 hours ago, JWM said:

OK, it is your model, your time, money and your choices...

I think that maybe point of view about history depends on your personal experiences, maybe since I live in Poland with all consequences of that  I cannot have different, that I have....

Regards

J-W

 

I actually had a very insightful conversation with a Polish associate about WW2 a few months back. 

[qn30jEkPz7]

2 hours ago, TonyW said:

If something feels wrong, it usually is

That's probably the best way of putting it. 

 

I leave them off, tbh I'd not feel comfortable even doing a Finnish plane with them on. If they were purely in history that'd probably be different but they are still used, graffiti'd and waved around by groups of people today (tbh I'm kind of comforted that the closest swastika graffiti near my home was clearly a 2nd attempt as the first one has one arm screwed up and is scribbled mostly out, if they're too incompetent to use a spray can hopefully they're too stupid to make a wider resurgence)

[gingerbob]

I think the thing that worries me most in your whole proposal is the Ta 183- I think it is a dumb looking design (you yourself don't seem to care for it very much) that has gotten more attention than it deserves.  (Note, I'm not saying it is a dumb design from a "functional airplane" point of view, just that aesthetically it doesn't do anything for me.)  I've got nothing against What-ifs, and your basic premise is far from the silliest "explanation" I've seen!

 

As for the swastika, I'm personally more bothered by squeamish censoring of an historical symbol than I am by seeing it, provided it is there in context.  The idiots that wave Nazi flags around now as a statement is another story.  (And I loved the idea of a gang of rebellious modellers waving their Me 109 models in public.)  So if you put on your SS uniform to set the tone for a session at the modelling desk (building nothing but 109s), that's one thing.  If you include in your collection of models an aircraft in service with the German Air Force during the war, in accurate markings, that's another.  I'm not morally opposed to building a Luftwaffe airplane, but I do find that most of the German types I have now I have different ideas for (Finnish 109, Ar 96 in Swedish civil postwar paint, Fw 190 in British hands and paint job, etc), even if that's not a very consciously chosen path.

 

 

[Major Eazy]

20 hours ago, Lewis95 said:

Hi guys, 

 

I'm about to start building a Fw Ta183. The kit itself is rather small and dull but I'm hoping to get some opinions on a rather risqué What If scheme. 

 

If you are easily offended then I'm sorry but this may not be a topic you'll want to read. 

 

When the Ta183 Huckebein was in development, it was hoped to replace all front line aircraft including the relatively new Me262 and He163. One key element of these "Wonder Weapons" was the propaganda surrounding them. Now, the piece I'm building bears no registrations due to decal limits and the aircraft itself would of likely been subject to intensive propaganda. 

 

The scheme I'm considering is a flat or glossy black all over with the typical Luftwaffe crosses. Another key element of Nazi propaganda was the symbolism of the Swastika and the Eagle usually on a red background. This is the element I'm considering adding to the model.

 

As the piece would be representative of a Ta183 propaganda piece, my idea is to incorporate a red tailplane with the Swastika. 

 

So why do I want to do this piece? 

 

Simply, I think the plane could do with a striking scheme. It's not big enough for a splinter camo scheme to look good. I want this piece to be a simple colour scheme with paints already in my stash. 

 

Again, I am just looking for opinions on a scheme like this. This is in no way a glorification or endorsement. The Ta183 never reached production so for me, a kit like this needs some imagination. 

 

If anybody has any ideas or other input, then I'm all up for hearing it. 

 

 

 

 

The point of What-If? models is just as the name implies, What would it look like, if history went a little or lot differently from what really happened? It's just fictional, not a glorification or endorsement or anything. It's just fictional and just for show. It's not much different from science fiction. When we see your model kit, we're just likely to say "Ooh! Image that if it happened for real!"

 

You're free to be as creative as you like. Go for it, go ahead.

[Wulfman]

I think it would great in overall satin black, with pre-war style red stripe across the fin with swastika on a white circle.
I have a Ta-183 in stock and I’m considering an all white finish with an oversize “Tatzelwurm” emblem ! 

 

Wulfman

[Lewis95]

1 hour ago, gingerbob said:

think the thing that worries me most in your whole proposal is the Ta 183- I think it is a dumb looking design (you yourself don't seem to care for it very much) that has gotten more attention than it deserves.

I actually quite like the design for the Ta183. I was quite drawn to it as I was selecting my last kit (toss up with the Mig 17) and then saw the model up for auction. It's far from the prettiest plane but I do like the aesthetic of the 183 ,Mig 15/17/19. 

 

The kit itself is questionable for fitting and lacks details though. 

 

1 hour ago, gingerbob said:

Finnish 109, Ar 96 in Swedish civil postwar paint, Fw 190 in British hands and paint job, etc), even if that's not a very consciously chosen path.

I actually have a few ideas similar to this after reading about the RAF unit that handled captured aircraft during the war. 

 

1 hour ago, Major Eazy said:

The point of What-If? models is just as the name implies, What would it look like, if history went a little or lot differently from what really happened? It's just fictional, not a glorification or endorsement or anything. It's just fictional and just for show. It's not much different from science fiction. When we see your model kit, we're just likely to say "Ooh! Image that if it happened for real!"

 

You're free to be as creative as you like. Go for it, go ahead.

Thanks for that bud. Puts a fair bit of perspective on it. 

 

11 minutes ago, Wulfman said:

think it would great in overall satin black, with pre-war style red stripe across the fin with swastika on a white circle.

That's the plan currently. Providing I can pull off the black adequately. Was the prewar stripe RLM23 or a different red? My mental imagery is telling me the red was a lot brighter than RLM23. 

[Toryu]

Interesting that the swastika discussion pops up every once in a while. I stopped building German warplanes when I left school, even though I did a few tanks lateron (which naturally don't wear swastikas). I didn't take this decision deliberately. It kind of happened, I think because in Germany everybody built German planes and I found this boring. Nowadays I'm quite happy with this turn in my modelling interests. As a German and with the gradual change of public opinion I would feel like offending the whole world when I display a swastika (and a German WWII plane without a swastika looks unreal to me). I still like watching them at Britmodeller, though, when they're nicely built. Meantime I have specialised on Japanese WWII aircraft and I don't have any concerns to even display the famous ensign. I guess I'm fine with it because I also model the 'good guys' in the form of US warplanes.

If you want to be 100% politically correct don't build military hardware at all!

[Lewis95]

49 minutes ago, Toryu said:

you want to be 100% politically correct don't build military hardware at all!

Hammer meets nail head. 

 

50 minutes ago, Toryu said:

I think because in Germany everybody built German planes and I found this boring.

I find the same with "mainstream" aircraft. Everybody builds Spitfires, 109s and P51s. My stash has no Spits, 109s or P51s for that reason. Some look amazing but I find no inspiration to build them. I do however, have a few post war jets and Soviet jets. Soviet and X-Planes seem to be my go to inspiration currently. 

[elger]

21 hours ago, SAT69 said:

From what I've read, many German pilots were anti-Nazi but deeply patriotic regarding their homeland.

 

This is a myth, part of what is commonly known as the Myth of the Clean Wehrmacht. It's very persistent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht

 

And re: the original question - I agree with what most people here are saying: your model of a fictional aircraft - you can do what you want. Build it how you see fit!

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by elger

[Britman]

Anybody built Goering's WW1 aircraft?🙃

 

Keith

[alt-92]

1 hour ago, elger said:

This is a myth, part of what is commonly known as the Myth of the Clean Wehrmacht.

Ah yes, like the 'wir haben es nicht gewusst' excuse.

Interesting read though, that link. Puts the post-war careers of some well-known names into perspective.

Different times, those were...seemingly.

 

[Lewis95]

1 hour ago, elger said:

This is a myth, part of what is commonly known as the Myth of the Clean Wehrmacht. It's very persistent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht

 

And re: the original question - I agree with what most people here are saying: your model of a fictional aircraft - you can do what you want. Build it how you see fit!

 

That's gonna make for some good reading material later! 

[Graham Boak]

19 hours ago, JWM said:

 I am suspicious what motivation stays behind it? ...

 

Individual examples are fine, done it myself, but the massive over-emphasis on Nazi-period creations does leave something of a bad taste.  There are as many more examples to be found elsewhere.  I can find a kit of the Bf.109X but not one of the Spitfire Mk.III or IV.   It can't all be just lack of knowledge, surely?  There are what-ifs I find more amusing (Imperial Roman F-16s in the Aztec wars?) or more realistic (RAF test example of the XP-55?), and some which are just too unrealistic for engineering or timescale reasons.  (Luftwaffe 56, anyone?)  But then the same is true about some of the real aircraft myths that riddle our histories.

 

Ah well, must return to my Handley Page HP 56 Happisburgh Mk.I series 1, though I suspect the later Mk.III Series 1a version with Centaurus just isn't going to happen.

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Graham Boak