A Questionable "What If"

[Lewis95]

This WHIF idea has now changed. Please see my post on Page 5 for the, IMO, better idea. 

 

Hi guys, 

 

I'm about to start building a Fw Ta183. The kit itself is rather small and dull but I'm hoping to get some opinions on a rather risqué What If scheme. 

 

If you are easily offended then I'm sorry but this may not be a topic you'll want to read. 

 

When the Ta183 Huckebein was in development, it was hoped to replace all front line aircraft including the relatively new Me262 and He163. One key element of these "Wonder Weapons" was the propaganda surrounding them. Now, the piece I'm building bears no registrations due to decal limits and the aircraft itself would of likely been subject to intensive propaganda. 

 

The scheme I'm considering is a flat or glossy black all over with the typical Luftwaffe crosses. Another key element of Nazi propaganda was the symbolism of the Swastika and the Eagle usually on a red background. This is the element I'm considering adding to the model.

 

As the piece would be representative of a Ta183 propaganda piece, my idea is to incorporate a red tailplane with the Swastika. 

 

So why do I want to do this piece? 

 

Simply, I think the plane could do with a striking scheme. It's not big enough for a splinter camo scheme to look good. I want this piece to be a simple colour scheme with paints already in my stash. 

 

Again, I am just looking for opinions on a scheme like this. This is in no way a glorification or endorsement. The Ta183 never reached production so for me, a kit like this needs some imagination. 

 

If anybody has any ideas or other input, then I'm all up for hearing it. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Lewis95

[SAT69]

It's an interesting "what if". 

[PLC1966]

I think the only questionable part would be a Luftwaffe aircraft without the Swastika.

 

It is a 3000 year old religious symbol hijacked by a particularly hideous regime/society for 15 years.

[Lewis95]

11 minutes ago, SAT69 said:

It's an interesting "what if". 

Relies a lot on the context its displayed in. Unfortunately, my generation are mostly offended if they see a Swastika so I'm always tentative to use them. 

3 minutes ago, PLC1966 said:

I think the only questionable part would be a Luftwaffe aircraft without the Swastika.

 

It is a 3000 year old religious symbol hijacked by a particularly hideous regime/society for 15 years.

Pretty sure most Luftwaffe aircraft bore the symbol. Not sure how many bore it with the red backdrop though

[Graham Boak]

All the prewar ones did.  None of the wartime., allowing for not knowing the precise date it changed.  Initially one side of the aircraft carried the three national colour in a stripe, but this was changed as the Nazi party increased its grip.

 

During the BoB one Bf.109E fighter unit flew without the swastika for a while as an objection to the treatment of their commander, who had married a Jew.

[PLC1966]

13 minutes ago, Lewis95 said:

Relies a lot on the context its displayed in. Unfortunately, my generation are mostly offended if they see a Swastika so I'm always tentative to use them. 

Pretty sure most Luftwaffe aircraft bore the symbol. Not sure how many bore it with the red backdrop though

Not knowing your age, I would say the modern generation is mostly offended full stop !!

 

 

[Gorby]

Go for it.

Your model, your rules, so anything is possible in your alternate reality.

Don't feel you have to be restrained buy what actually happened - I don't.

[Lewis95]

33 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

All the prewar ones did.  None of the wartime., allowing for not knowing the precise date it changed.  Initially one side of the aircraft carried the three national colour in a stripe, but this was changed as the Nazi party increased its grip.

 

During the BoB one Bf.109E fighter unit flew without the swastika for a while as an objection to the treatment of their commander, who had married a Jew.

That's actually quite an interesting story to look up. Need a rainy day now to do so! 

 

25 minutes ago, PLC1966 said:

Not knowing your age, I would say the modern generation is mostly offended full stop !!

 

 

Mid 20's haha. 

 

23 minutes ago, Gorby said:

Go for it.

Your model, your rules, so anything is possible in your alternate reality.

Don't feel you have to be restrained buy what actually happened - I don't.

Generally my attitude. I love a lot of the Luft 46 style planes and early British XPs. This will be part of my displayed collection if I pull it off but wanted to know the general attitude of modellers to swastikas. 

[Graham Boak]

The swastika argument ran its course in modelling some time ago, though it keeps cropping up when some, generally younger, modellers discover that some nations do still object to public displays of Nazi political symbols .  In the core, most modeller are interested in the history and will add the swastika.  The more politically sensitive will just get on with it, and possibly don't put it on theirs.  The question for you is why do you model?  If it is just for the hell of clipping it together, fine, but then put it on or take it off depending on whether your audience is bothered.  Which in turn leads to the question of just who is your audience?  If you are trying to please some outside influence such as your peer group, I suspect that most of them won't be impressed by a few plastic kits, however well made or marked.  If you don't wish to upset someone who objects to some aspect of history, then ask whether the person deserves that respect.  Older generation maybe, younger I'd generally say not.  Do you have a fear of being labelled as a right-wing nut for putting swastikas on your models of Nazi planes - remember the Luftwaffe was the most Nazified of the three main services - then ask yourself just who do you make these models for, yourself or other people?

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Graham Boak

[qn30jEkPz7]

Why do you want to do the red tail and make it an overtly propaganda what-if? It isn't a historical recreation so are you doing it just to provoke a reaction? 

 

[rossm]

Wasn't the prototype Me163 overall red, or maybe one of the development aircraft? That's what I'd go for I think.

[Alan P]

3 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

 Ask yourself just who do you make these models for, yourself or other people?

This 👆 all day long. 

 

I feel uneasy putting the hooked cross on anything because of the association with Nazism and oppression, regardless of historical accuracy. Being honest, that uneasiness hasn't stopped me doing a handful of Nazi aircraft and ships for museum and collection displays, complete with the historical symbol.

 

But if others want to put it on theirs, that's up to them. If it's for your own modelmaking pleasure, there's nothing stopping you. But if you only build what others would judge to be acceptable, it's not much of a hobby in my opinion! 

[Graham Boak]

The red Me.163 was supposedly for the first combat flight, the ground crew having repainted it overnight in memory of von Richtofen.  The pilot was not impressed, feeling that the last thing he needed in a sky crowded with US fighters was a bright red aircraft.

[Lewis95]

18 minutes ago, LostCosmonauts said:

Why do you want to do the red tail and make it an overtly propaganda what-if? It isn't a historical recreation so are you doing it just to provoke a reaction? 

 

The red is sheerly on it to add a pop of colour. It's a very striking colour with black, as well The propaganda part of the what if is to explain the paint scheme. And no, I'm not doing it to provoke a reaction. That would be childish and a waste of my time. I just don't want to build an overtly random piece. The reason I'm considering this scheme is I can see it being quite a gripping scheme and relatively simple to pull off. 

 

29 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Do you have a fear of being labelled as a right-wing nut for putting swastikas on your models of Nazi planes - remember the Luftwaffe was the most of the three main services - then ask yourself just who do you make these models for, yourself or other people?

That's a very valid question. 

 

Whilst I build models and schemes that I like, for my collection and display, I also like to share my progress and document my models for others to see. 

 

20 minutes ago, Alan P said:

But if you only build what others would judge to be acceptable, it's not much of a hobby in my opinion! 

That's a very valid point. 

[alt-92]

Funny how this almost never comes up with WWII Japanese or Soviet subjects.

[Work In Progress]

It's a what-if. with a vaguely plausible back-story. I'm not really sure at what sort of event you're expecting it to get criticised, and for what. Were you planning a widespread publicity campaign for it to the non-modelling public?

 

The only time I criticise a what-if idea is if someone builds something that offends the laws of physics*, and I'm not even that cross then.

 

*for example a well known 25-ton twin-jet bomber converted to tailwheel configuration and re-engined with a pair of Merlins off a Mosquito with less than half the max take-off weight. You could have taxied it around I suppose, and you could even have dragged it round a circuit unloaded, providing it didn't have an engine failure, but fly it as a warplane? nope...

Edited May 15, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Lewis95]

19 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

Funny how this almost never comes up with WWII Japanese or Soviet subjects.

Indeed. I've seen all of about 1 discussion about the Hammer and Sickle and controversy surrounding it. None about Japanese insignia. It's always the hooked cross and Swastika that garner accusations and insults. 

 

2 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

It's a what-if. with a vaguely plausible back-story. I'm not really sure at what point you're expecting it get criticised, and for what Were you planning a widespread publicity campaign for it?

I studied history in school. There were about 30 kids in this class when we studied the start of WW2. Nearly 3/4 started screaming at the teacher when they saw the Swastika. That's the kind of generation I'm from so I always figure that it's best to ask if it's a taboo or not. 

 

And a publicity campaign you say? Well, if you count putting it above my computer with a Soviet Mig 17 and a die-cast F86 Sabre..... 

 

I was planning on sharing the build here depending on the water temperature surrounding Swastikas on a What If. Back story is really rough but took me all of 30 seconds to write. I might just log the build and leave it with a red banded tail. 

[Work In Progress]

Nobody here is going to turn a hair. Unless you go out of your way to alarm the general population with it no-one will turn a hair. No-one in the general population will in any case differentiate it from any other vehicle, historically accurate or otherwise, witha swastika on it.

You might want to look at the actual Britmodeller what-if forum to see the range of stuff that people make and post. I am sure you will find some reassurance.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/151-what-if/

Edited May 15, 2020 by Work In Progress

[dogsbody]

Just do it. If someone complains, tell them to kiss off! It's your Whif and there are no rules.

 

Oh yeah! Post pictures here. I want to see.

 

 

 

Chris

[Work In Progress]

5 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

Oh yeah! Post pictures here. I want to see.

 

Sure, in the correct forum.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/151-what-if/

[SAT69]

28 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

Funny how this almost never comes up with WWII Japanese or Soviet subjects.

Japanese and Russian aircraft carried a national insignia and often carried unit insignias but I don't recall seeing them carrying symbols of a natonal party. From what I've read, many German pilots were anti-Nazi but deeply patriotic regarding their homeland. A Higher Call, by Adam Makos, gives some good insight into German pilot thoughts on being a Nazi.

 

Regarding the Swastika, it wasn't until I served in the USAF in Germany in the 80's that I dsicovered some model kits of German aircraft didn't have swastikas on their decals sheets. I soon learned having anything with a swastika on it was (and presumably still is) illegal in Germany. Upon returnig the the United States in the early 90's, it became common to see model kits depicting German WWII aircraft with decal sheets containing no swatikas and it appears to be common today as well. 

[SAT69]

3 hours ago, Lewis95 said:

Relies a lot on the context its displayed in. Unfortunately, my generation are mostly offended if they see a Swastika so I'm always tentative to use them. 

Pretty sure most Luftwaffe aircraft bore the symbol. Not sure how many bore it with the red backdrop though

The younger generation is also the one that embraces political correctness. I can't speak for opinions of older generations in Europe or across the world, but here in the U.S. political correctness is considered a lot of #%^*@_+! I'll go along with the current mind set that seems to have taken hold in the plastic modeling world: Build what you want, the way you want and have fun!

[Lewis95]

1 minute ago, SAT69 said:

The younger generation is also the one that embraces political correctness.

Pretty sure some of my generation could get offended by a picture of a potato sometimes to be honest 😂

[Lewis95]

23 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

You might want to look at the actual Britmodeller what-if forum to see the range of stuff that people make and post. I am sure you will find some reassurance.

I'll be heading there momentarily. I didn't know we had a WHIF Forum! 

[JPuente54]

There are "whatifs" on other fora(hyperscale, modeling madness), using a wartime Luftwaffe aircraft with the swastika. I agree with many others and say go ahead. If someone can make a German carrier jet aircraft "whatif"; yours should be fine.

Joe