Jump to content

Hawker Horsley, Vacform Tutorial


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, mackem01 said:

This may be considered a bit over the top but I do my sanding back with an orbital sander mounted upside down on a workbench and finish with a fine sanding block. It's quite quick though you have to keep an eye on your cut lines.

I remember watching Doug Feeney (founder of ID Models) building one of his creations at a show (Huddersfield perhaps?) some years ago. He was using a neat, small palm sized electric sander to remove the excess plastic. It was very effective! 

 

SD

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, VG 33 said:

Hello Martian

So far It has been very interesting and I keep every page of this tutorial.

Cheers.

Patrick

Happy that is helping Patrick.

4 hours ago, Marklo said:

Mayonnaise is actually one of the best things for removing adhesive residue.

How on earth did you discover that one Mark?

4 hours ago, mackem01 said:

Well there you go, the backlog has been clearing nicely, now this thread has whet my appetite! There's now a Sanger Hampden on the bench in the preliminary cutting out stages!🙄

This may be considered a bit over the top but I do my sanding back with an orbital sander mounted upside down on a workbench and finish with a fine sanding block. It's quite quick though you have to keep an eye on your cut lines.

Its what ever works for the individual. The grinder cut hours off the time to prepare the parts but you need to be confident in using it in this way.

1 hour ago, John Aero said:

I've quickly fiddled with this drawing to balance the fuselage profile with the other views. It was 1:72 when it left me.  To scale it, a half span should be 120.5 mm (centre to tip) and the fuselage is 164 mm (not including the tail light).

 

John

spacer.png

Many Thanks John.

57 minutes ago, SafetyDad said:

I remember watching Doug Feeney (founder of ID Models) building one of his creations at a show (Huddersfield perhaps?) some years ago. He was using a neat, small palm sized electric sander to remove the excess plastic. It was very effective! 

 

SD

Now there's a blast from the stone age, err I mean past. ID models were a bit on the basic side but they did some great subjects.

 

Martian 👽

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SafetyDad said:

I remember watching Doug Feeney (founder of ID Models) building one of his creations at a show (Huddersfield perhaps?) some years ago. He was using a neat, small palm sized electric sander to remove the excess plastic. It was very effective! 

 

SD

Yep, he had good subjects, I still have a couple of 48th Lightnings with the optional T'bird nose. Who knows, Martian may persuade me to drag one out after this!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Martian said:

How on earth did you discover that one Mark?

Google. Both vinegar and oil can be good depending on the adhesive ; mayonnaise having both is really good.

 

I have also spent a period of my career as the engineer in charge of a machine that put on sticky labels ( it was a bit more complicated than it sounds as these were applied at 30 ppm to inkjet cartridges) but had occasion to learn a lot about adhesives.

Edited by Marklo
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Martian said:

Now there's a blast from the stone age, err I mean past. ID models were a bit on the basic side but they did some great subjects.

 

Martian 👽

Yes, I remember your Wyvern.  At least I think that was an ED job? And it was some years go.

 

Tim

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, mackem01 said:

Yep, he had good subjects, I still have a couple of 48th Lightnings with the optional T'bird nose. Who knows, Martian may persuade me to drag one out after this!

Why not? they are not doing any good where they are .

6 hours ago, Marklo said:

Google. Both vinegar and oil can be good depending on the adhesive ; mayonnaise having both is really good.

 

I have also spent a period of my career as the engineer in charge of a machine that put on sticky labels ( it was a bit more complicated than it sounds as these were applied at 30 ppm to inkjet cartridges) but had occasion to learn a lot about adhesives.

Now that makes sense.

4 hours ago, Fishbed said:

Yes, I remember your Wyvern.  At least I think that was an ED job? And it was some years go.

 

Tim

How could I ever forget that experience! The build nearly sent me round the bend. (quiet Tim!) I still have the model but it needs me to rebuild the undercarriage.  The weight of the filler in the model finally overcame the white metal of the undercarriage. The 1/32 version of this kit is still available through Tigger Models and I keep thinking of getting it. Then I remember the trauma of the 1/48 build and reality sets in.

 

There is no update this evening as that nuisance we call life has got in the way today and now I'm too tired.

 

Martian 👽

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Martian said:

There is no update this evening as that nuisance we call life has got in the way today and now I'm too tired.

Which leaves me the only possible response to that.

 

‘life, don’t talk to me about life’ Marvin the paranoid android; empathised by me.

Edited by Marklo
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

About ten years ago I tried my first vacform kit, the Sierra scale models Fairey Barracuda.

 

507Q4eG.jpg

 

 

I think I must have used an Angle Grinder to sand it down as it went slightly pear (or banana) shaped.

 

HURL6IO.jpg

 

0dnFZ7p.jpg

 

6kGfkW7.jpg

 

 

Careful sanding is rather important!         :rofl:

 

Maybe I should dig this one out of the shelf of shame and have another crack at it...       :hmmm:

 

 

 

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Marklo said:

Which leaves me the only possible response to that.

 

‘life, don’t talk to me about life’ Marvin the paranoid android; empathised by me.

OK, I asked for that one! Still if you dish stuff out then you have to accept a proportion of it coming back.

21 minutes ago, Murdo said:

About ten years ago I tried my first vacform kit, the Sierra scale models Fairey Barracuda.

 

507Q4eG.jpg

 

 

I think I must have used an Angle Grinder to sand it down as it went slightly pear (or banana) shaped.

 

HURL6IO.jpg

 

0dnFZ7p.jpg

 

6kGfkW7.jpg

 

 

Careful sanding is rather important!         :rofl:

 

Maybe I should dig this one out of the shelf of shame and have another crack at it...       :hmmm:

 

 

 

Have a bash, until it went wrong, it looks like this was coming along rather nicely. Anyway, what have you got to lose? Just build up the areas where too much has been taken away and sand it down again.

 

Martian 👽

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, this is a perfect example of the problems with the sanding on a sheet method!  It is quite difficult to sand evenly without introducing *uneven* pressure, resulting in spots having more removed than others.  If I may add my two pence...

My personal method to removing and cleaning up parts follows these basic steps:

-Outline the parts on the sheet with a fine tip permanent black marker.  I use a Sharpie brand marker. The mark is half on the part, half on the sheet, right at the juncture.

-Use light scoring right at the part edge - at 45 degree angle of the blade tip - 3-4 passes enough to allow a clean separation while flexing at the cut (takes some practice, but becomes quite easy)  Use care with sharp inside angles (think of where a fin meets a fuselage) to ensure snapping the part free doesn't 'tear' across the part.  It may require more thorough cutting or simply score across the corner, leaving a small triangle to be carved out later.  The goal is to have *no* border around the part, just a small wedge section of the backing sheet to be removed from the part.

-With knife or razor, remove most of the excess material using the marker line as a visual gauge. I think of it as "whittling"...

-Finish the part edge using sanding blocks (such as the T-blocks recommended by 'Aeroclub'.)  Take care to sand just shy of the black marker line - sanding right to the line causes the ink to flake off and 'moving' your gauge line little by little.  I like to get within a hair and then finish with a finer grit.

 

Wings and such require a different strategy to treat those trailing edges (especially!) where the top and bottom surfaces of the part come together along a sharp, acute edge.  Mostly, it involves scrapping the 'inside' to establish a good mating surface followed again with fine finish sanding.  Best to stay away from the exact edge to avoid changing its shape or outline.

 

And there it is - a major part of the satisfaction of a vacuform project is how the "fit and finish" of the parts is all in your hands.  Solving the puzzle that is the collection of bits at a more basic level than any injection molded kit gives in my opinion more joy from tackling and taming the engineering challenges.  Some really groove on the painting and decaling, for myself, it is what comes before.

 

Back to the regular "show".  Cheers!

Robert

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just found this thread and I can tell it will be very useful whe nI get around to starting my first vac formed kit:

 

dNJa7Gk.jpg

 

It's the 1/72 Avro Canada CF-100 kit made by Astra. I bought it when Canuck models were offering a package deal on the kit plus a choice of one of their CF-100 decal sheets to go with it.

 

I'm stillslowly planning a lot of the build and deciding what I can use from the kit and what's best to scratch build or find aftermarket for.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, rbeach84 said:

Hey, this is a perfect example of the problems with the sanding on a sheet method!  It is quite difficult to sand evenly without introducing *uneven* pressure, resulting in spots having more removed than others.  If I may add my two pence...

My personal method to removing and cleaning up parts follows these basic steps:

-Outline the parts on the sheet with a fine tip permanent black marker.  I use a Sharpie brand marker. The mark is half on the part, half on the sheet, right at the juncture.

-Use light scoring right at the part edge - at 45 degree angle of the blade tip - 3-4 passes enough to allow a clean separation while flexing at the cut (takes some practice, but becomes quite easy)  Use care with sharp inside angles (think of where a fin meets a fuselage) to ensure snapping the part free doesn't 'tear' across the part.  It may require more thorough cutting or simply score across the corner, leaving a small triangle to be carved out later.  The goal is to have *no* border around the part, just a small wedge section of the backing sheet to be removed from the part.

-With knife or razor, remove most of the excess material using the marker line as a visual gauge. I think of it as "whittling"...

-Finish the part edge using sanding blocks (such as the T-blocks recommended by 'Aeroclub'.)  Take care to sand just shy of the black marker line - sanding right to the line causes the ink to flake off and 'moving' your gauge line little by little.  I like to get within a hair and then finish with a finer grit.

 

Wings and such require a different strategy to treat those trailing edges (especially!) where the top and bottom surfaces of the part come together along a sharp, acute edge.  Mostly, it involves scrapping the 'inside' to establish a good mating surface followed again with fine finish sanding.  Best to stay away from the exact edge to avoid changing its shape or outline.

 

And there it is - a major part of the satisfaction of a vacuform project is how the "fit and finish" of the parts is all in your hands.  Solving the puzzle that is the collection of bits at a more basic level than any injection molded kit gives in my opinion more joy from tackling and taming the engineering challenges.  Some really groove on the painting and decaling, for myself, it is what comes before.

 

Back to the regular "show".  Cheers!

Robert

Thanks Robert, it illustrates that there are many ways to go about building vacform models. I'm showing what has worked for me for the last forty odd years. Doubtless those following this will go on to adapt my methods to suit their own tastes.

16 minutes ago, upnorth said:

I just found this thread and I can tell it will be very useful whe nI get around to starting my first vac formed kit:

 

dNJa7Gk.jpg

 

It's the 1/72 Avro Canada CF-100 kit made by Astra. I bought it when Canuck models were offering a package deal on the kit plus a choice of one of their CF-100 decal sheets to go with it.

 

I'm stillslowly planning a lot of the build and deciding what I can use from the kit and what's best to scratch build or find aftermarket for.

If we can help, that will be great.

 

Martian 👽

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there's one further thing to add to Martian's excellent tutorial (says this rowdy student sitting at the back!). :wink:

 

Namely, your choice of vac kit. It could make a huge difference to your chances of success. I have to come clean here, and confess I've never built a complete vac (yet!), but I have more than a few in the stash. And the quality varies enormously,  with some outstanding (Falcon, Dynavector and Cooper Details for example - all of which I have) and others (some 80s kits) essentially just sheets of plastics with funny blobs in the middle.  :tmi:. I wonder if attempting those might just be setting the newcomer up for failure? 

 

The Falcon vac conversion sets would seem to be one possible good place for the newbie to start. Their Bf 109G-12 looks excellent for example (other subjects are available), and, as it's simply a fuselage to be added to an IM kit, perhaps the right size of project to build confidence? And all of Mr Martian's tips would be applicable to this.

 

Back to the main feature - sorry for the hijack.

 

SD

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Contrail kits are some of the more basic available and this is precisely why I chose one of their kits. If it can be demonstrated that there is nothing to fear from these kits, then people who have better quality kits such as Rareplanes, Aeroclub, Falcon, Joystick etc should have no trouble with their kits.

 

The tips here would indeed by applicable to vacform conversion parts. The only reservation I would have of starting vacforms in this way is that one is adding the surgery required to the donor kit and the grafting on of the vacform parts into the mix and that might be a bit much all at once for some, who are already nervous about this type of modelling. Get a couple of simple vacforms under your belt first then by all means go for it.

 

Martian 👽

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know, I wasn’t planning on starting my Contrail Lerwick for some years. My dear Martian has, though, put temptation in my way.
 

I think I might be able to at least trim the parts out, even if I don’t get round to assembly yet.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, rbeach84 said:

Hey, this is a perfect example of the problems with the sanding on a sheet method!

For what it’s worth, from my very limited (ie 2 kits!) experience of vacforms, I completely agree with Robert’s post. His method works well for me too.

 

7 hours ago, upnorth said:

It's the 1/72 Avro Canada CF-100 kit made by Astra.

Good choice!

 

27 minutes ago, Martian said:

there is nothing to fear from these kits

Agreed. There are shape errors which you may wish to correct, and plenty of opportunity for scratchbuilding, but isn’t that part of the fun? My recently-completed Contrail Vildebeest, for example:

 

20200416_094801

Jon

Edited by Jonners
  • Like 18
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Heather Kay said:

You know, I wasn’t planning on starting my Contrail Lerwick for some years. My dear Martian has, though, put temptation in my way.
 

I think I might be able to at least trim the parts out, even if I don’t get round to assembly yet.

You have a Lerwick? Hand it over at once! Seriously though, why not start prepping the parts? You never know, you might just forget to stop and end up with a Lerwick for your collection.

16 minutes ago, Jonners said:

For what it’s worth, from my very limited (ie 2 kits!) experience of vacforms, I completely agree with Robert’s post. His method works well for me too.

 

Good choice!

 

Agreed. There are shape errors which you may wish to correct, and plenty of opportunity for scratchbuilding, but isn’t that part of the fun? My recently-completed Contrail Vildebeest, for example:

 

20200416_094801

Jon

The Vildebeest is very much of the same quality as the Horsley and Jonners model shows just what can be done with even some of the more basic vacforms.

 

Martian 👽

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Martian said:

You have a Lerwick? Hand it over at once!

I have, and it’s my precioussssss!

 

It popped up on the Hannants secondhand sales - there was also a London from the same maker - for a not inconsiderable amount of money. I slept on whether to buy, and decided it was worth it. It does, after all fit my 1940 obsession, and I’ve harboured Lerwick desire for several decades. The London, I assume, is still in the warehouse, or perhaps it’s found a loving home now. My guess is they came from a deceased modeller's stash, so I became the current custodian of a fairly rare kit.

  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Heather Kay said:

I have, and it’s my precioussssss!

Now where did I put that ring that makes you invisible? If I can find it I can sneak into you hose and nick your precious a la Bilbo Baggins.

 

Plotting of Mars 👽

  • Haha 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, AdrianMF said:

I hope the kit is more desirable than the real thing! Sounded like a death trap on wings/floats.

Quite, though I don’t think as a type it was entirely alone in that respect.

 

Anyway, back on the main topic...

 

*hands control back to Martian*

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Martian said:

Contrail kits are some of the more basic available and this is precisely why I chose one of their kits. If it can be demonstrated that there is nothing to fear from these kits, then people who have better quality kits such as Rareplanes, Aeroclub, Falcon, Joystick etc should have no trouble with their kits.

 

The tips here would indeed by applicable to vacform conversion parts. The only reservation I would have of starting vacforms in this way is that one is adding the surgery required to the donor kit and the grafting on of the vacform parts into the mix and that might be a bit much all at once for some, who are already nervous about this type of modelling. Get a couple of simple vacforms under your belt first then by all means go for it.

 

Martian 👽

The first Vac I did was a conversion, a Koster PB4Y-2 Privateer.I had gotten as far as the Fuselage grafting and stopped. It sat above my computer monitor for over a year before I got the courage to pick it up and finish it. It wasn't a pleasant experience. In fact it probably should be stripped back down to its  parts and redone I used A LOT of autobody filler on that one. Martian I correct,Start off simple to get your feet wet. Then once your confidence improves, then tackle the challenging kits. Your sanity will thank you for it. Mine unfortunately still wants to give me heck for it😎 Of course your mileage may vary.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Martian said:

Now where did I put that ring that makes you invisible? If I can find it I can sneak into you hose and nick your precious a la Bilbo Baggins.

 

Plotting of Mars 👽

Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold.

 

Err, carry on, as you were...

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...