Lacquer Thinner and Booths and Wha.....?

[fatfingers]

7 hours ago, Pete F said:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/3m-4251-half-mask-respirator-a1-p2/464hy

Thats the one i use. I spray lacquer paints whilst wearing it and no stink gets through. I also have a spray booth too.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[Lewis95]

1 hour ago, square said:

It removes all smell from paint I use, including lacquer.

Nice. Will be adding that to the shortlist depending if the supplier reopens. 

1 hour ago, fatfingers said:

Thats the one i use. I spray lacquer paints whilst wearing it and no stink gets through. I also have a spray booth too.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

Which booth have you got mate? Will be watching that one as I can get to screw fix once I'm back in work. 

[square]

I also have a spray booth, this model.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Display4top-Airbrush-Extractory-Portable-Extraction/dp/B07CG454GN/ref=pd_lpo_79_t_2/260-2121389-0101134?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07CG454GN&pd_rd_r=610a85c7-6b3d-4fc0-94bb-1214b83fe342&pd_rd_w=IQbhD&pd_rd_wg=q4AVR&pf_rd_p=7b8e3b03-1439-4489-abd4-4a138cf4eca6&pf_rd_r=7XV5Z9KXV8RJ4FVESJ1P&psc=1&refRID=7XV5Z9KXV8RJ4FVESJ1P

[fatfingers]

12 hours ago, Lewis95 said:

Nice. Will be adding that to the shortlist depending if the supplier reopens. 

Which booth have you got mate? Will be watching that one as I can get to screw fix once I'm back in work. 

This one 

https://www.graphicair.co.uk/product/benchvent-bv300s-d-airbrush-spray-booth/?gclid=CjwKCAjwte71BRBCEiwAU_V9hxlIA0jPqN57hkeT0nHoIZ30Q3rHS3fWRg6Gs1EPAm01agX5G8KauBoCuYMQAvD_BwE

Not cheap or very portable but a great bit of kit. Prior to this i used one of the smaller fold up types which was good for what i needed at the time.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[Mr T]

I am surprised you had difficulty in spraying Citadel paints, I have used them on several occasions with no problems. Thinned with a mix of deionised water and Windsor and Newton Flow Improver that you can buy from the Range or artshops. 

[Lewis95]

19 minutes ago, Mr T said:

I am surprised you had difficulty in spraying Citadel paints, I have used them on several occasions with no problems. Thinned with a mix of deionised water and Windsor and Newton Flow Improver that you can buy from the Range or artshops. 

Don't get me wrong, it CAN be done but Citadel paints don't play nice with non-citadel thinners. Albeit, this was told to me by the same shop that didn't tell me that lacquer was such a serious toxin. 

 

1 hour ago, fatfingers said:

Not cheap or very portable but a great bit of kit. Prior to this i used one of the smaller fold up types which was good for what i needed at the time

In the long run, this might be something I'd look at but it's straight up out of budget at the moment. 

1 hour ago, square said:

also have a spray booth, this model.

how well does this model perform? No smells lingering afterwards? 

[Mr T]

For brushing I have thinned Citadel paints with water with no problems and as said used flow improver. I often use a recommended branded thinner with paints as I know some perform better like that. Tamiya and Gunze Aqueous being examples. Citadel I suspect is a fairly straightforward acrylic paint made in a factory  that makes lots of others. The 'universal thinner' I would not trust with Tamiya or Gunze as they have a different base to most acrylics like Citadel, Xtracyrlix, Vallejo etc. 

[fatfingers]

As @Mr T says above Citadel brush really well when thinned with water. Ive sprayed Citadel in the past with the UMP Universal Thinner without any difficulty. I've also used this when spraying Tamiya. Results were ok but not brilliant. Tamiya X20A thinner obviously works well with them but SLT works brilliantly (if you can vent it that is) 

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[Harry Lime]

5 hours ago, square said:

I also have a spray booth, this model.

Might have to look at getting one of those myself. At less than £100, that's not a huge wedge of cash either and not having a permanent set-up myself, looks to be an ideal solution for my needs. Only drawback is the size of the booth area, might struggle with some of the bigger scales or larger projects like Avro Vulcans etc.

 

Mark.

[Lewis95]

3 hours ago, Mr T said:

For brushing I have thinned Citadel paints with water with no problems and as said used flow improver. I often use a recommended branded thinner with paints as I know some perform better like that. Tamiya and Gunze Aqueous being examples. Citadel I suspect is a fairly straightforward acrylic paint made in a factory  that makes lots of others. The 'universal thinner' I would not trust with Tamiya or Gunze as they have a different base to most acrylics like Citadel, Xtracyrlix, Vallejo etc. 

I use Citadel a lot for my Ork models. Think I'll have to try a test spray with other thinners at some point. Would Citadel play nice with Vallejo thinner and flow improver? 

 

20 minutes ago, fatfingers said:

As @Mr T says above Citadel brush really well when thinned with water. Ive sprayed Citadel in the past with the UMP Universal Thinner without any difficulty. I've also used this when spraying Tamiya. Results were ok but not brilliant. Tamiya X20A thinner obviously works well with them but SLT works brilliantly (if you can vent it that is) 

 

Regards,

 

Steve

Venting is the problem I've got. I don't have an extractor rig or even a proper respirator. Resps are hard to come buy at the moment but once work resumes, I should be able to get one easily enough. 

4 minutes ago, Harry Lime said:

Might have to look at getting one of those myself. At less than £100, that's not a huge wedge of cash either and not having a permanent set-up myself, looks to be an ideal solution for my needs. Only drawback is the size of the booth area, might struggle with some of the bigger scales or larger projects like Avro Vulcans etc.

 

Mark.

I've got a 1/72 X-35 in the planning. The wingspan on that beast is 28 inches! Albeit, I plan on rattlecans for that one. 

[square]

5 hours ago, Harry Lime said:

Might have to look at getting one of those myself. At less than £100, that's not a huge wedge of cash either and not having a permanent set-up myself, looks to be an ideal solution for my needs. Only drawback is the size of the booth area, might struggle with some of the bigger scales or larger projects like Avro Vulcans etc.

 

Mark.

You can combine 2 spray booths into one larger booth, if you want to.

[square]

10 hours ago, Lewis95 said:

11 hours ago, square said:

also have a spray booth, this model.

how well does this model perform? No smells lingering afterwards? 

 

It is a cheap model, but I think it works well. I use mine in the kitchen and don't have any strong smell of paint afterward.

The fan makes some noise. In a more expensive booth the fan might be more silent.

I recommend you buy a booth with build in led light.

[Lewis95]

13 minutes ago, square said:

 

It is a cheap model, but I think it works well. I use mine in the kitchen and don't have any strong smell of paint afterward.

The fan makes some noise. In a more expensive booth the fan might be more silent.

I recommend you buy a booth with build in led light.

I'll be evicted to the garage for future modelling so noise is less of an issue now. Just efficiency as I'll be moving back to lacquer thinner once my respirator comes in. 

[Lewis95]

13 minutes ago, square said:

 

It is a cheap model, but I think it works well. I use mine in the kitchen and don't have any strong smell of paint afterward.

The fan makes some noise. In a more expensive booth the fan might be more silent.

I recommend you buy a booth with build in led light.

I'll be evicted to the garage for future modelling so noise is less of an issue now. Just efficiency as I'll be moving back to lacquer thinner once my respirator comes in. 

[PattheCat]

If the mask is referenced as at least ipp3 it's already  one that filters liquid particles suspended in the air. They have limits though and above certain concentrations of fumes, let's say with your nose just above the thinner bottle, you will sometimes smell the fumes a tiny little bit but it comes more from face fit than through the filters. But full etancheity is only to find with industrial painting face masks, like the ones for painting cars inside a closed booth. That's overkill. The model Square shows is very much like my 3M 6000 series. So YOU'll be Ok. Problem with alcohol based paints is that IPA/thinner is dangerous for the nervous system, evaporates and spreads real fast so for the sake of others close the door to other rooms and ventilate the one you work in.

Remember all chemicals, even odourless, are toxic. The nice smelling spray you use in your toilets is toxic. So be very careful but don't get paranoid.

BTW  I prefer to use Tamiya X20A to Gunze proprietary thinner to thin Gunze acrylics.

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by PattheCat

[Lewis95]

2 hours ago, PattheCat said:

If the mask is referenced as at least ipp3 it's already  one that filters liquid particles suspended in the air. They have limits though and above certain concentrations of fumes, let's say with your nose just above the thinner bottle, you will sometimes smell the fumes a tiny little bit but it comes more from face fit than through the filters. But full etancheity is only to find with industrial painting face masks, like the ones for painting cars inside a closed booth. That's overkill. The model Square shows is very much like my 3M 6000 series. So YOU'll be Ok. Problem with alcohol based paints is that IPA/thinner is dangerous for the nervous system, evaporates and spreads real fast so for the sake of others close the door to other rooms and ventilate the one you work in.

Remember all chemicals, even odourless, are toxic. The nice smelling spray you use in your toilets is toxic. So be very careful but don't get paranoid.

BTW  I prefer to use Tamiya X20A to Gunze proprietary thinner to thin Gunze acrylics.

 

I've got some X20A on the way. I'll likely be moving my airbrush to the garage and getting myself a spray booth to enable spraying at night. Will be able to spray at night then if it's got lights. Thankfully, kitchen spraying is a closed door affair. 

[PattheCat]

Be aware that most cheap spray booths aren't really safe to use with enamel or lacquers because their electric connections are not properly isolated/encased contrary to Graphicair and the like. Alcohol fumes are also flammable but the problem seems less preoccupying (don't ask me why). I know many people build their own with computer fans or kitchen hood vents, but ... better safe than sorry.. Still, these cheap ones work without problem with X20A and so on as it' already thinned with water,

But, know that these cheap booths are not very powerful and you'll still have to wear a mask, not the case wit Graphicair and the like. And they're small! Check size!

Don't know what models you will build but I should not look for something less than 20 inches broad.

 

What you must look at is that the motor is not placed directly in the outgoing air flux (as with a computer fan, what most cheap booths use) but best look for one with a centrifugal fan on the side (former Tamiya model, not available anymore) or at the rear of where the exhaust duct is placed (Sparmax SB88). Another option is a second-hand Graphicair/Benchvent.

 

 

A proper build: https://vent-works.com/blogs/the-ventilation-blog/15945741-diy-hobby-spray-booth?utm_source=Pinterest&utm_medium=Social

 

How do I know? Some years ago, as I used lacquers and enamels, I did my search and finally bought a Benchvent/Graphicair. Now I use acrylics (Tamiya, Gunze) and work with a mask and open window directly at my side. Silly me, lost investment but I hope to have a new den soon where to place the booth.

Edited May 15, 2020 by PattheCat

[Lewis95]

1 hour ago, PattheCat said:

Be aware that most cheap spray booths aren't really safe to use with enamel or lacquers because their electric connections are not properly isolated/encased contrary to Graphicair and the like. Alcohol fumes are also flammable but the problem seems less preoccupying (don't ask me why). I know many people build their own with computer fans or kitchen hood vents, but ... better safe than sorry.. Still, these cheap ones work without problem with X20A and so on as it' already thinned with water,

But, know that these cheap booths are not very powerful and you'll still have to wear a mask, not the case wit Graphicair and the like. And they're small! Check size!

Don't know what models you will build but I should not look for something less than 20 inches broad.

 

What you must look at is that the motor is not placed directly in the outgoing air flux (as with a computer fan, what most cheap booths use) but best look for one with a centrifugal fan on the side (former Tamiya model, not available anymore) or at the rear of where the exhaust duct is placed (Sparmax SB88). Another option is a second-hand Graphicair/Benchvent.

 

 

A proper build: https://vent-works.com/blogs/the-ventilation-blog/15945741-diy-hobby-spray-booth?utm_source=Pinterest&utm_medium=Social

 

How do I know? Some years ago, as I used lacquers and enamels, I did my search and finally bought a Benchvent/Graphicair. Now I use acrylics (Tamiya, Gunze) and work with a mask and open window directly at my side. Silly me, lost investment but I hope to have a new den soon where to place the booth.

Would you recommend the Sparmax SB88 then over a basic Amazon one? I've actually had the SB88 on my tabs for reference for a while now and your post has been fantastic for information. I hadn't considered flammability of the paints and thinners. 

[square]

Lewis95, you might get some answers to your questions at this site:

 

https://tangibleday.com/top-10-spray-booths-for-airbrushing-miniatures-and-models/

 

[PattheCat]

6 hours ago, Lewis95 said:

Would you recommend the Sparmax SB88 then over a basic Amazon one? I've actually had the SB88 on my tabs for reference for a while now and your post has been fantastic for information. I hadn't considered flammability of the paints and thinners. 

Problem is that nearly all spray booths you'll find, like the one on Amazon, are all the same chinese model. Look here, https://www.paascheairbrush.com/product/hb-16-13/, it's sold by Paasche and still is the generic model with an axial fan and they mention "not intended for use with flammable materials". They announce a 3 to 4 cubic meters airflow per minute with a motor power  of 17 or 25w and speak of a noise level of 40 to 45 Db.

If you look at the Sparmax specs, 65 watt motor for just over 60 cubic feet per minute (2 cubic meters per minute). The recommended airflow to work without a mask is 105 cubic feet per minute. Also 62 db is real noisy. So why did I consider the Sparmax as the best of the "bad" ones"? Because it's the only one I saw with a centrifugal motor and I think it's a renowned brand that sells good products and therefore I've more confidence in the numbers they provide. Aside of the Sparmax I also selected an Aircom that's sturdier (the 38 watt model) but couldn't find any information about the motor/fan, so I didn't know if it was safe. Also it's just 40 cm wide. 

 

That said, I chose a Graphicair Benchvent BV300S-D  because at the time I could get it for about 270 pounds and Sparmax mentioned that it's model was not suitable for solvent based paints, a remark I don't find anymore even if the model doesn't seem to have changed. Also, I think that even a Sparmax (sold around 135 £) is just worth half it's price. Better to pay 299 £ for a Benchvent BV300S-D and to pay by installments (Graphicair proposes 6 x 50£). But there you have my opinion that doesn't necessary fit your needs and my spray booth has been sitting unused back in its box for years.

 

And, I'm no shareholder of Sparmax or Graphicair ..... I'm just the kind of guy that roams the internet for specs and reviews and opinions before buying, even if I have to wait longer to afford what I consider suitable. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by PattheCat

[Steve Noble]

If I may give you some serious and honest advice from my experience of spray booths. In all honesty, don't waste your money on those cheap versions. You'll be throwing it away, only to spend it again later to get a proper booth. They're cheap for a reason. The Graphic-air/Benchvent A300SD is the one to have. If you can't afford it now, wait until you can, you won't be disappointed by it's performance, or how quiet it is in use. It really is the best for the price. I know it's not cheap in comparison to the others, but you really do get what you pay for. A solid piece of kit that is fit for purpose, safe, quiet and reliable. I've had mine for years and never regretted the money I spent to buy it. It's one of those things that once you try it you'll wonder how you ever got by without it. The others are just "put me ons" at best and you will upgrade later. It's definitely one of those situations of spend the money now, don't spend it again later...

[PattheCat]

18 minutes ago, Steve Noble said:

If I may give you some serious and honest advice from my experience of spray booths. In all honesty, don't waste your money on those cheap versions. You'll be throwing it away, only to spend it again later to get a proper booth. They're cheap for a reason. The Graphic-air/Benchvent A300SD is the one to have. If you can't afford it now, wait until you can, you won't be disappointed by it's performance, or how quiet it is in use. It really is the best for the price. I know it's not cheap in comparison to the others, but you really do get what you pay for. A solid piece of kit that is fit for purpose, safe, quiet and reliable. I've had mine for years and never regretted the money I spent to buy it. It's one of those things that once you try it you'll wonder how you ever got by without it. The others are just "put me ons" at best and you will upgrade later. It's definitely one of those situations of spend the money now, don't spend it again later...

Well, I gave the numbers and you gave the sound advice ..... Same with compressor and airbrush .... We can't give more effective help, I think.

[Steve Noble]

2 minutes ago, PattheCat said:

Well, I gave the numbers and you gave the sound advice ..... Same with compressor and airbrush .... We can't give more effective help, I think.

So true. As a modeller I hate to see anyone spend their hard earned money only to waste it on inferior kit. I made mistakes myself along the way especially with compressors and if I can point just one person in the right direction I will try 👍😀

[Lewis95]

Well thank you all. 

 

If Graphicair are still doing the instalment payments then I may go down that route. Guessing it won't be nice enough to really be moveable once setup though 😛

[PattheCat]

23 minutes ago, Lewis95 said:

Well thank you all. 

 

If Graphicair are still doing the instalment payments then I may go down that route. Guessing it won't be nice enough to really be moveable once setup though 😛

 

You're welcome.

Graphicair still does: https://www.graphicair.co.uk/product/benchvent-bv300s-d-airbrush-spray-booth/

11.5 kg but ...  ..... it has a carrying handle.

Edited May 15, 2020 by PattheCat