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Another Fokker D.VII Colour Scheme Question - RAF Markings


mhaselden

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Going back to the Fokker, I wonder if the fuselage is pale blue.  Apparently Goering flew an overall pale blue Fokker D.VII in the late summer of 1918.  The colour may have been available to the RAF at Spich courtesy of captured German stores.

 

Here's a photo of Goering's Fokker:

 

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Folks have probably already said this....

 

The fuselage looks CDL...Factory lozenge on the wings.  The nose is probably hand-painted lozenge in grey-violet and Fokker Green, a factory job.  I agree that it is probably a late OAW aircraft.

 

This would make an excellent model.  I might have to build it too.

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19 minutes ago, John Masters said:

Folks have probably already said this....

 

The fuselage looks CDL...Factory lozenge on the wings.  The nose is probably hand-painted lozenge in grey-violet and Fokker Green, a factory job.  I agree that it is probably a late OAW aircraft.

 

This would make an excellent model.  I might have to build it too.

 

Yeah...I thought it was CDL but that idea has been pretty much battered Melvyn. 

 

Is there a reference somewhere that lists German colours?  I've seen references to Lilac and Mauve and now grey-violet.  I presume there were actual colour specifications with proper names (although, equally, I expect there was a fair degree of variability).

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1 hour ago, melvyn hiscock said:

This one has often been reported as being all white

 

Yeah...every time I think I've found a possible answer, I realize I've been looking in the wrong places or making the wrong assumptions.  I also looked at the "Seven Swabians" but the colour is too dark to match what we're seeing on this RAF bird.  

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1 hour ago, mhaselden said:

I expect there was a fair degree of variability

Indeed there was.  The paints faded easily in the weather.  I said Grey-Violet, but Lilac/Mauve could be closer.  

 

3 hours ago, melvyn hiscock said:

This one has often been reported as being all white

Indeed it was.  

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On 5/15/2020 at 9:14 PM, John Masters said:

Indeed there was.  The paints faded easily in the weather.  I said Grey-Violet, but Lilac/Mauve could be closer.  

 

Is there a list of colours applied to German aircraft in 1918?  AK Interactive list some 8 colours, although I'm not sure if that's enough to cover, for example, the 5-colour lozenge scheme.  The AK colours comprise:

 

Fokker Grey

Light Green

Dark Green

Mauve

Red Brown

Light Blue

Lilac

Grey-Green Primer

 

The above is certainly a start but I'm unsure if it is comprehensive.  Any guidance from the cognoscenti here would be very much appreciated.

 

Many thanks,

Mark

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9 hours ago, mhaselden said:

I'm unsure if it is comprehensive. 

I think those colors are comprehensive in regards to factory paints.  You would have to check the Datafile Fokker DVII series for more specifics.  Also, the aircraft were repainted in the field and they faded, etc...MIsterKitUSA had a wide range of German colors and I have used them with no problems.  Unfortunately, I think they are no more.  The website is no more so I am assuming the paints are no longer available.  In a hobby world of niche markets, his was a narrow niche for sure...

 

Btw...The lozenge was not painted, but rather printed on the fabric.  Those colors were different from the fuselage colors.

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3 hours ago, John Masters said:

I think those colors are comprehensive in regards to factory paints.  You would have to check the Datafile Fokker DVII series for more specifics.  Also, the aircraft were repainted in the field and they faded, etc...MIsterKitUSA had a wide range of German colors and I have used them with no problems.  Unfortunately, I think they are no more.  The website is no more so I am assuming the paints are no longer available.  In a hobby world of niche markets, his was a narrow niche for sure...

 

Btw...The lozenge was not painted, but rather printed on the fabric.  Those colors were different from the fuselage colors.

MisterKitUsa was run by one of the members of the World War One Modelling list, and scandalously enough I've forgotten his name - Michael Something, anyway. The paints were and are manufactured in Italy by Mister Kit. His aim was to make the paints available more easilt in the US. At the time, Aeroclub handled them in the UK. If you look at thei Mister Kit website  (https://www.misterkit.com) most of the old colours are still available.What is missing is an international distributor. You can try to order direct, but only if you have the  odd Italian VAT/Fiscal code. No code, no sale. Pity. The website is very poorly implemented, too.

 

Paul.

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9 minutes ago, John Masters said:

Thanks Paul!

Please let us know if you succeed, same to anyone else. I like their paints a lot, and am almost out................. I set up an account, tried to place an order (this is to Scotland), came up against the fiscal number thing, and that was the end of it. Couldn't get a response out of them by email, although that could be down to my lack of Italian.

 

Paul.

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23 minutes ago, Paul Thompson said:

The website is very poorly implemented, too.

Yes...I was just searching the 'paint' category.  You have to know what you want.  The WW1 colours are only a colour swatch, not the familiar looking bottle.  

 

I have quite a few colours in the stash which I have reconstituted using Ajax cleaning fluid.  This works well since I am airbrushing them.  Like all true acrylics, they need a primer or else they only stick.  This was a complaint by some.  Not by me.

 

I'll email them about the VAT...Since I am in Greece they might be more compassionevole...

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3 hours ago, John Masters said:

Btw...The lozenge was not painted, but rather printed on the fabric.  Those colors were different from the fuselage colors.

 

Poor use of the English language by me, I'm afraid.  Despite spending my entire life with English as my mother tongue, I still express myself incredibly poorly at times.

 

Yes, the lozenge fabric was printed but some of the colours used in the lozenge pattern were also applied as paints and/or dopes.  In this RAF Fokker example, we have (probably) Dark Green and Lilac applied to the cowling.  I'm assuming (yes, perhaps unwisely) that those painted colours had some relationship to the printed colours used in the lozenge pattern (not identical but at least broadly similar).  My poorly-worded question should have been focused on German dope and paint colours that were commonly available. 

 

In terms of paints (and using Melvyn's thread showing close-ups of a restored Fokker as a starting-point), it's clear that Grey-Green Primer applied to the fuselage structure and interplane struts.  The cabane struts appear to be black.  We also have reasonable guesstimations regarding the use of Dark Green and Lilac on the cowling.  The situation regarding dopes is rather more confusing, not least because personal schemes were not uncommon on German aircraft, which leads to a large degree of colour variation.   Clearly there was white dope and paint (the Goering Fokker D.VII is one example).  A number of Fokker Dr.1s show pale blue undersides which suggests the availability of such a dope.  And then we have red dope which must have been available (per von Richtofen and several others with large areas of red on their aircraft).

 

Going back to the fuselage of the RAF-marked Fokker at Spich, it clearly isn't white; the white of the RAF roundel shows a marked contrast to the fuselage shade.  Melvyn has made a strong case for silver dope based on the lack of "see-through" that is commonly seen with CDL.  I'm still not 100% convinced on the silver dope candidate for a number of reasons but, equally, I can't discount it entirely.  Light blue is a possible candidate given that it had been used on other German aircraft and hence may have been available at Spich.

 

Part of my problem is lack of knowledge about colours during the timeframe.  Were dopes procured and stored ready-mixed to a given specification or were they mixed locally prior to application using a smaller number of primary shades and based on instructions that provided the appropriate quantities of each primary shade to make the desired colour?  I'm afraid I just don't know but it has some bearing on the analysis.  If pre-mixed dopes were stored at airfields, then it's reasonable to assume one of those shades might have been used on this Fokker.  If the dopes were mixed locally then the fuselage of this Fokker could be almost any pale shade based on whatever dopes were available.  

 

Sorry for the diatribe but the lack of even a reasonable pick-list of options is rather frustrating.  I'm more of a WW2 nut and my ignorance of Great War topics has been made abundantly clear in this thread.  I appreciate everyone's patience as I try to wrestle this image analysis into a reasonable set of options for the fuselage colour of this Fokker.

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On 5/12/2020 at 8:46 AM, mhaselden said:

Hi Folks,

While aimlessly googling on family history topics, I came across this image (bottom right) of a Fokker D.VII taken at Spich Aerodrome in 1919

(...)

 

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(...)

On 5/12/2020 at 8:46 AM, mhaselden said:

Kind regards,

Mark

 

Hi, Mark,

I am following this thread very interested: I am historian, currently researching the allied occupation of the Rhineland after the armistice of 1918, as well as a modeler of WW1 airplanes and I live in Bonn, only some 20 kilometers from Spich. So my interest in your posting here is even threefold! Concerning the colours of the Fokker D.VII I think all has been said here, so far. Maybe one addendum: It seems that every squadron of the „RAF of the Rhine“ had its own Fokker D.VII - at least that's what the photos from Bickendorf, Hangelar and now Spich suggest... I suppose your relative was a member of the No.7 Spadron RAF, which was equipped with RE.8 planes and stationed in Germany from Dec. 1918 until Sept. 1919 (last RAF squadron to leave the zone of occupation in the Rhineland) and at Spich from Dec. 20. 1918 to May 11. 1919. My questions are: Do you have any more inFormation about what the squadron actually DID in Germany? I mean besides flying and maintaining the planes... Any hint to their official duties in the context of the occupation? Thank you in advance and best regards,

Richard.

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6 hours ago, RHWinter said:

(...)

 

Hi, Mark,

I am following this thread very interested: I am historian, currently researching the allied occupation of the Rhineland after the armistice of 1918, as well as a modeler of WW1 airplanes and I live in Bonn, only some 20 kilometers from Spich. So my interest in your posting here is even threefold! Concerning the colours of the Fokker D.VII I think all has been said here, so far. Maybe one addendum: It seems that every squadron of the „RAF of the Rhine“ had its own Fokker D.VII - at least that's what the photos from Bickendorf, Hangelar and now Spich suggest... I suppose your relative was a member of the No.7 Spadron RAF, which was equipped with RE.8 planes and stationed in Germany from Dec. 1918 until Sept. 1919 (last RAF squadron to leave the zone of occupation in the Rhineland) and at Spich from Dec. 20. 1918 to May 11. 1919. My questions are: Do you have any more inFormation about what the squadron actually DID in Germany? I mean besides flying and maintaining the planes... Any hint to their official duties in the context of the occupation? Thank you in advance and best regards,

Richard.

 

Hi Richard,

 

My relative served with 11 Sqn flying Brisfits.  He arrived at Spich on 20 May 1919.  Most of the flights from then until the end of July 1919 comprise routine tests, "pilot's practice" and "travelling flights".  There were a number of flights back to Nivelles and a few to England but the purpose of these flights is seldom recorded.  In general, the number of flights were relatively few in number, with many days without any flying whatsoever. The number of practice flights picked up in late-June as fears increased that Germany would not sign the peace accords.  Lt Col Strange, who commanded the 51st Wing at Spich, was recalled from leave in the UK because of these fears.  Signing of the peace treaty allayed those concerns, and perhaps accelerated the return of 11 Sqn to the UK in July (I have yet to access the file covering the movement of the Sqn back to the UK from Spich).

 

I agree that most squadrons probably had their own ex-German trophy aircraft but the odds of positively identifying any Fokker(s) "owned" by 11 Sqn is slim to non-existent.  The images I found on eMedals.com are likely as close as I'll get.

 

Kind regards,

Mark

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Thanks Mark for your quick and „enlightening“ response!

Most of what I know about the british squadrons in the Rhineland, I know from this book:

https://books.google.de/books?id=PVSNOQAACAAJ&dq=Philpott+royal+air+force&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqh_XnwsDpAhXM0KQKHZzeBcwQ6AEIPjAD .
When I was at Kew archives, I found that they have quite a number of short squadron histories, all indicating the day of their demobilization. But you'll know those records. 
Cheers! Richard

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8 minutes ago, RHWinter said:

Thanks Mark for your quick and „enlightening“ response!

Most of what I know about the british squadrons in the Rhineland, I know from this book:

https://books.google.de/books?id=PVSNOQAACAAJ&dq=Philpott+royal+air+force&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqh_XnwsDpAhXM0KQKHZzeBcwQ6AEIPjAD .
When I was at Kew archives, I found that they have quite a number of short squadron histories, all indicating the day of their demobilization. But you'll know those records. 
Cheers! Richard

 

Hmmm...that's a new one to me.  I must admit to having a slightly negative view of many Pen & Sword books.  Is that one worth me investing hard-earned to procure it?  

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  • 2 weeks later...

To me the second photo is the finished product, in standard RAF colours: clear doped linen/natural plywood and PC 10.

 

When I look at the two photos, I notice the following differences:

 

1- the first one is in the process of being overhauled, the second one seems ready to fly;
2- the second has a red-white-blue rudder, the first one hasn't;
3- the second one has a one colour (repainted?) engine cover, the first one hasn't;

4- the first one has ribbon tapes on the upper wing and cleary visible lozenge shapes, the second has neither as if the wings have been overpainted.

 

Provided they’re one and the same plane, isn’t the more obvious answer that:
a- the second photo is taken after the first one;
b- that during its overhaul its fuselage was covered (anew) with unprinted linen;
c- the user’s own stock was used, i.e. 11 Squadron’s.

 

That gives the plane the basic RAF colours: dark colour PC 10 and light colours varnished only (clear doped or - around cockpit - plywood).

The engine and - because of the lozenge fabric - wing & tail plane undersides were also PC 10.

It certainly looks a LOT like pictures of contemporary RAF planes finished like that: no need for fancy colours at all.

 

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Good spot on the rudder not having stripes on the first image.  Not so sure about the other conclusions, though, because the quality of the second image is so poor that it's hard to glean any positive indication of colours, other than to say that the fuselage appears to be the same as in the first image and the upper surfaces of the wings and tailplane are dark, perhaps with some mottling. 

 

I can't make out the cowling clearly enough on the second image to say with any certainty that it's any different from its appearance in the first image.  Certainly the whole fuselage in the first image appears relatively pristine so repainting the cowling would be something of a waste of time.  

 

Not sure I buy the idea of the wings being recovered.  If they were going planning to strip the wings, why open all the inspection panels for the rear spar that are visible in the first image?  

 

Alas, like so many old images, we're down to educated guesswork.  

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