Another Fokker D.VII Colour Scheme Question - RAF Markings

[mhaselden]

On 5/31/2020 at 12:23 PM, RHWinter said:

Mark, did you try to post your question here, too? The people „over there“ are most helpful!

https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?board=29.0

 

Richard,

 

Are you a member of that forum?  I tried to register last weekend and received the initial email saying my request had been received but I've heard nothing since.  There's no way to contact the site owner outside the forum so I'm feeling a wee bit stuck in limbo.

 

If you are a member of the forum, any chance you could shake the trees a little to try and get my application processed?

 

Many thanks,
Mark

Edited June 5, 2020 by mhaselden

[RHWinter]

Mark, yes I am a member of that forum and I will shake the tree for you! 😁

[mhaselden]

4 minutes ago, RHWinter said:

Mark, yes I am a member of that forum and I will shake the tree for you! 😁

 

Very much appreciated.  Best bet would probably be to PM me with an email address that goes to an actual human being (assuming such an address exists).

[mhaselden]

A poster on another forum pointed out a feature I hadn't noticed regarding the fuselage.  There appears to be a triangle of lozenge fabric just aft of the cowling (note how the line of the light fuselage colour is vertical, and doesn't follow the slope of the rear of the cowling.

 

I'm absolutely no Fokker D.VII expert but I haven't found a single image showing that area to be a separate fabric panel.  I'm therefore left to wonder if the light-toned fuselage might just be what the aircraft wore while in German service?  

[RHWinter]

Mark, couldn't the lightcoloured fuselage simply have been overpainted Lozenge (since the „triangle“ left to be seen)? The colour might then have been some greyish blue or blueish grey... Wingnut Wings have some examples in their (gone 😢) range of Fokker D.VII, like here:

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/productdetail?productid=3084&cat=3
The painted cowlings with Lozenge-like hexagons were a feature of Fok D.VII produced at OAW (Ostdeutsche Albatros Werke), as far as I know...

Edited June 10, 2020 by RHWinter

[mhaselden]

11 hours ago, RHWinter said:

Mark, couldn't the lightcoloured fuselage simply have been overpainted Lozenge (since the „triangle“ left to be seen)? The colour might then have been some greyish blue or blueish grey... Wingnut Wings have some examples in their (gone 😢) range of Fokker D.VII, like here:

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/productdetail?productid=3084&cat=3
The painted cowlings with Lozenge-like hexagons were a feature of Fok D.VII produced at OAW (Ostdeutsche Albatros Werke), as far as I know...

 

Hi Richard,

 

Yes, the light-coloured fuselage could simply be overpainted lozenge fabric.  I'm showing my lack of knowledge here (again!) but I wasn't sure how the more gaudy German aircraft schemes were applied.  Clearly, the factory-delivered aircraft had lozenge fabric that was clear-doped.  Presumably, additional coats of coloured dope would be applied ontop of the factory finish to achieve the colourful examples shown on the WNW site?

 

Agree a pale shade (grey, blue, green) is a contender.  

 

Cheers,
Mark

Edited June 10, 2020 by mhaselden

[RHWinter]

Hi Mark, I am afraid, you won't get a definitive answer to your question concerning the Fokker D.VII's fuselage-colour. Some last ideas from me: Try to contact Greg van Wyngarden directly via the aerodrome forum and/or (if you're active on facebook) here on Ray Rimell's (the publisher of the famous Windsock series) FB-page

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1147483955323793?multi_permalinks=1291903940881793&notif_t=group_highlights&notif_id=1478865387703492&ref=m_notif

Good luck! 
Richard

[mhaselden]

Hi Richard,

 

Frankly, I never expected to get a definitive answer.  However, I was hoping for rather more ideas or at least thoughts on the topic.  It certainly does seem like the original fuselage lozenge fabric was overpainted in the light colour, which suggests CDL is off the list of possible candidates.  That light colour also clearly extends onto the fin and rudder, which suggests that the light colour was applied after its German service (or it's a particularly dark version of white).  I don't think I can go much further than that at this stage.  Of course, on the plus side, nobody can definitively claim that I applied the wrong colour!

 

Kind regards,
Mark

[RHWinter]

That's the way it is: Mostly guesswork with the colours due to the b/w photographs which show different shades of grey of one and the same original colour depending on which chemicals the film used was based on... And guesswork even if there's a written description as these don't use distinct colour-systems like RAL in Germany.
Have a look here what the people at Wingnut Wings wrote about the colours of OAW produced Fokker D.VIIs - what they Dare and what they don't dare saying: http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/product?productid=3080

Fin and rudder were originally painted white in the factory, the fuselage was covered with Lozenge Tarnstoff.

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/productdetail?productid=3080&cat=3

I can't give you a convincing reason for it, but to me the fuselage of the Spich Fokker looks like it were overpainted in that blueish grey/greyish blue.. (When I was a student, my girlfriend came from Spich - does that give me more authority in this case..?)

Keep me up to date, Mark! Cheers,

Richard

Edited June 16, 2020 by RHWinter

[melvyn hiscock]

Of course there is the simply expedient. 
 

you want it a new colour but why recover?

 

‘grab nearest vaguely correcting colour. This is not being done to a spec, so let’s just get on with it. We’ve got half a can of light blue on the shelf but that won’t be enough, let’s use these two unopened  cans of the bluish grey / greyish blue, easy. That’ll do.‘

 

no one was working to ‘rules‘
 

oh, and don’t forget to provide colour swatches and and accurate drawings for the people that will be making plastic models in 100 years time. What do you mean what models? People will be arguing about this on the internet. What? What do you mean ‘what’s an internet.........? , this might take some time.......
 

I mean no offence to anyone that really wants to know, but I’d bet you they used what was there without a second thought, to get the job done.

[mhaselden]

32 minutes ago, melvyn hiscock said:

Of course there is the simply expedient. 
 

you want it a new colour but why recover?

 

‘grab nearest vaguely correcting colour. This is not being done to a spec, so let’s just get on with it. We’ve got half a can of light blue on the shelf but that won’t be enough, let’s use these two unopened  cans of the bluish grey / greyish blue, easy. That’ll do.‘

 

no one was working to ‘rules‘
 

oh, and don’t forget to provide colour swatches and and accurate drawings for the people that will be making plastic models in 100 years time. What do you mean what models? People will be arguing about this on the internet. What? What do you mean ‘what’s an internet.........? , this might take some time.......
 

I mean no offence to anyone that really wants to know, but I’d bet you they used what was there without a second thought, to get the job done.

 

And dashed inconsiderate it was of them, too!  How dare they not write down the specific colour mix based on stock references, and augment the written record with swatches of the finished colour for future generations to evaluate.  Some people really lack foresight!

 

I suspect the thread has reached a logical conclusion, but I learned a lot along the way from the insights others provided and their analysis of the images.  I agree that we're probably looking at some locally-available or locally-mixed concoction.  A pale blue would make some sense but it could be any light colour.  

Edited June 16, 2020 by mhaselden

[melvyn hiscock]

I go for ‘Stroudleys Improved Engine Green’. It is basically my favourite colour story if all time. No one had the nerve to tell Stroudley he was colour blind,’

[48-Alone-Is-Great]

Do we dare to assume this is the same machine as in the second photo? Mary Evans Collection no. 10838728.

[RHWinter]

Might be. But if so, these two pics do show a Fokker D.VII, which is a different one to the one on the first pics shown in this thread. Thorough inspection reveals (well, sort of..) that this Fokker D.VII does not have the (OAW factory-) hand painted hexagonal „dots“ on the cowling, but seems to sport the earlier, „cloudy“ version of OAW-camouflage-blotches on the cowling.

Edited June 17, 2020 by RHWinter

[RHWinter]

This is another example of a Fok. D.VII (OAW) with its fuselage overpainted with a light colour when under german management:

[mhaselden]

13 hours ago, 48-Alone-Is-Great said:

Do we dare to assume this is the same machine as in the second photo? Mary Evans Collection no. 10838728.

 

Hmmmm.....interesting image.  Funny what emerges from the photo vaults!  My view is that this is a different machine because the light-toned fuselage fabric aligns with the slope at rear of the cowling.  The other 2 photos of the Spich-based machine appear to show the front of the light-toned fabric as a vertical line, not sloped.  I will admit, though, that it's hard to be certain given the rather poor quality of the second Spich image.  

Edited June 17, 2020 by mhaselden

[RAS]

Here is the story behind of one of the WW1 military grave at St Nicholas’s church in Old Shoreham

 

It is the final resting place of Canadian WW1 fighter pilot Captain Albert Desbrisay Carter who was killed on Thursday 22nd May 1919 when the captured German Fokker D.VII serial 8482/18 he was flying was seen to break up in mid-air.

 

Albert Desbrisay Carter was born in Point de Bute, New Brunswick Canada and joined the 13th Reserve Battalion of the Canadian Expeditionary Force in March 1911.

 

On 1 October 1917, Carter transferred to No. 19 Squadron Royal Flying Corps in France flying Sopwith Dolphin scouts. He subsequently becoming an ace by shooting down six enemy aircraft.

 

On 18 March, Major Carter was shot down by German ace Lieutenant Paul Billik. Carter fell behind German lines, survived the crash, and was captured. He finished his war in a prisoner of war camp being repatriated on 13 December 1918.

 

In 1919 Number 1 Wing Royal Canadian Airforce reformed at Shoreham airport with Captain Carter serving with Number 1 Squadron RCAF. The accident report can be seen at:

 

http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1839.25;wap2

 

Carter by Ray Staley, on Flickr

 

Fokker_D.VII_with_Major_W.G._Barker_V.C._captured_aircraft_at_Hounslow_Aerodrome_UK_April_1919._Library_and_Archives_Canada_Photo_MIKAN_No._3214714 by Ray Staley, on Flickr

 

2009_0622Annabel0008 by Ray Staley, on Flickr