Another Fokker D.VII Colour Scheme Question - RAF Markings

[mhaselden]

Hi Folks,

 

While aimlessly googling on family history topics, I came across this image (bottom right) of a Fokker D.VII taken at Spich Aerodrome in 1919, part of a collection that was sold on a Canadian militaria website (https://www.emedals.com/😞

 

 

 

I'm not terribly familiar with German WW1 aircraft markings but the cowling area doesn't look like any lozenge pattern that I've seen before.  I'm guessing the rear fuselage has been recovered and probably is just in natural doped linen - it certainly looks in better condition than the upper wing.  I think I detect a more traditional lozenge scheme on the upper surface of the lower wing.  Unfortunately, the website badge covers the port lower wing which might offer additional clues.  Also, the undersurface of the lower wing looks quite dark compared to the roundel.   

 

Do the experts out there have any suggestions for colours on this bird?  It's certainly an odd mix of details.  Even best guesses would be very much appreciated since I don't even know where to start.

 

I'm interested because a relative was stationed at Spich around the time this image was taken, and his logbook records a couple of flights in Fokkers.  It's entirely possible he flew this actual aircraft and I'm thinking it would make an interesting model.

 

Absolutely any ideas or inputs would be very welcome.  

 

Kind regards,

Mark

Edited May 12, 2020 by mhaselden

[mhaselden]

Quick update to the above...I found another link that allows each of the individual images to be seen, which removes the badge from most of the image of the Fokker D.VII.  The link below should work:

 

https://www.emedals.com/six-first-war-royal-flying-corps-royal-air-force-rfc-raf-photographs

 

It also reveals what appears to be a second image of this Fokker D.VII which shows the upper wing surface, although the overall image is rather dark and of poor quality.  Sadly, I can't grab links to the individual images from the page so I can't directly link them here.  

 

The second image of the Fokker shows a RAF rudder flash and dark-toned upper surfaces to both wings and tailplane.  RAF roundels are visible on the upper surface of the upper wing.  

Edited May 12, 2020 by mhaselden

[melvyn hiscock]

The cowling ‘might’ suggest an OAW built machine but it does not look like hand painted lozenge. Look at the undersurface of the upper wing, there are clearly fabric repairs and also what look like inspection holes along the ribs by the rear spar that have been doped over, the cowling marks look more like red dope too as they look to have inspected it closely, very wise when you have seen Fokker’s quality control up close. The Louvre patterns are often a giveaway and I am sure someone may be along to speak forth on this.

 

The fuselage May have been recovered after inspection as it is easier to recover than the wings would be, and it is the area that would have taken more of a basking from in-field inspections and personalised markings. By this point in time silver dope would be highly likely.

 

I’d guess standard lozenge upper and lower wings with red doped repairs and inspection holes, with, at least at this stage, silver dope fuselage.

 

Remember too that a lot of DVIIs were sent in kit form, so it may be a composite

 

I hope that helps

 

 

just had a look in the great Paul Leaman’s Fokker aircraft book from Crowood and no clues in there

Edited May 12, 2020 by melvyn hiscock

[modelldoc]

RAF had some Fokker in her hand, here is my interpretation of one of these planes:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/8586704285/in/photolist-RFCMV3-qtazHD-qngM2S-e5M72B-dBJLB2

 

modelldoc

 

[mhaselden]

1 hour ago, melvyn hiscock said:

The cowling ‘might’ suggest an OAW built machine but it does not look like hand painted lozenge. Look at the undersurface of the upper wing, there are clearly fabric repairs and also what look like inspection holes along the ribs by the rear spar that have been doped over, the cowling marks look more like red dope too as they look to have inspected it closely, very wise when you have seen Fokker’s quality control up close. The Louvre patterns are often a giveaway and I am sure someone may be along to speak forth on this.

 

The fuselage May have been recovered after inspection as it is easier to recover than the wings would be, and it is the area that would have taken more of a basking from in-field inspections and personalised markings. By this point in time silver dope would be highly likely.

 

I’d guess standard lozenge upper and lower wings with red doped repairs and inspection holes, with, at least at this stage, silver dope fuselage.

 

Remember too that a lot of DVIIs were sent in kit form, so it may be a composite

 

I hope that helps

 

 

just had a look in the great Paul Leaman’s Fokker aircraft book from Crowood and no clues in there

 

Many thanks, Melvyn, for such a detailed reply.  The airframe certainly has a worn and battered appearance, and it may indeed be a composite reconstructed from multiple wrecks/spare components.  

 

Your comment about red-doped repairs and inspection holes makes sense. Would red dope have been used on metal cowling components?  

 

I agree with the lozenge upper surfaces on the upper and lower wings, and on the tailplane.  I'm not so sure about silver dope under the wings and on the fuselage, though.  There's a marked lack of sheen in either image...but that could just be my poor interpretation and lack of knowledge on the topic.  Certainly, all the RAF airframes at Spich appeared to retain the wartime doping specifications so it's possible that silver dope hadn't made it's way out to Germany by the late spring/early summer of 1919.  I do detect a darker lower surface to the bottom wing compared to the underside of the upper wing, although I accept it could just be shadow causing the effect.  

 

Hoping some other experts chime in because I'd like to hear other views.  It's certainly an interesting bird.

 

Kind regards,
Mark

Edited May 12, 2020 by mhaselden

[mhaselden]

Finally managed to break the code on linking to a better-quality version of the image which still includes the website owner's badge but provides a better view of the entire airframe:

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by mhaselden

[Ted]

That is a great photo, thanks for sharing.

 

Pheon decals has some captured Fokker D.VII decal sets, their profiles show a similar painted pattern on the front cowlings. They suggest lavender and green as the colours. One of the OAW Fokker profiles on the Wingnut Wings site shows the same pattern and colours. 

 

 

[mhaselden]

8 minutes ago, Ted said:

That is a great photo, thanks for sharing.

 

Pheon decals has some captured Fokker D.VII decal sets, their profiles show a similar painted pattern on the front cowlings. They suggest lavender and green as the colours. One of the OAW Fokker profiles on the Wingnut Wings site shows the same pattern and colours. 

 

 

 

Hi Ted.  I see what you mean.  The painting on the cowling, as depicted by Pheon Decals, certainly looks similar to this machine.  

 

Many thanks,
Mark

[mhaselden]

The Wingnuts Wings website has a few pics of Fokkers with similarly-patterned cowlings.  One of the best is visible on this linky by clicking on the image that says "Page 31" -  the top image on that page shows the cowling quite nicely.  

 

The Wingnut Wings "Archive Photos" page on the Fokker D.VII also has a couple of images with cowling schemes that appear to match the photo taken at Spich.  

Edited May 12, 2020 by mhaselden

[mhaselden]

Here's the other photo of the aircraft.  It's not great quality but at least it shows the positions of the upperwing roundels, the presence of the rudder flash and the location of the fuselage roundel.  

 

[AWFK10]

I can't claim any expertise on the Fokker D.VII but Melvyn is surely right, somebody has had a very good look at the rear spar of the top wing and the single large patch towards the leading edge may be evidence of the front spar being checked as well. Is it just me or is the right tyre flat? The RAF roundels on the wing and the fuselage may been painted on by two separate people: the proportions of the rings are different. The wing roundels are correct, the one on the fuselage is more akin to the non-standard ones applied  during the war to Nieuport aircraft serving with the RFC and RNAS: the same proportions as the French air service roundel but with the colours reversed. Clearly the fuselage isn't PC10 but my understanding is that the RAF didn't applying a silver finish to aircraft until 1923.

 

Going by the Windsock Fokker D.VII Anthology 1, the louvres on the cowling are consistent with the final Fokker-built version.

[melvyn hiscock]

One reason for thinking silver rather than clear Is the lack of see through.  The self painted lavender markings a on the cowling are quite possible. There is no reason to have to paint the fuselage colours over and not the nose if work was needed on the cowlings would be in paint and not dope.

 

as for the wing undersides I’d say standard underside lozenge as the tapes are showing.

 

by the end of the war French Ali dope could (and I say could) have been from a French stocks, and info as to why it was being used would have been available. That is just a suggestion but I still don’t think it is CDL.

 

as always, I am prepared to be wrong. 

[melvyn hiscock]

2 hours ago, AWFK10 said:

but Melvyn is surely right,

oh I do like that, I shall have a small bask

Quote

 

The RAF roundels on the wing and the fuselage may been painted on by two separate people: the proportions of the rings are different. The wing roundels are correct, the one on the fuselage is more akin to the non-standard ones applied  during the war to Nieuport aircraft serving with the RFC and RNAS:

It would make sense as wings would be easier if off the fuselage and if the fus was recovered, wings would be off anyway. That would make them most certainly pained at different times, probably by a different team and probably in a different shed.

[mhaselden]

Great inputs and discussion, gents.  As we've already noted, the aircraft is something of a curate's egg.  The fuselage looks clean and pristine but the wings and undercarriage look extremely tired and worn.  I agree with AWFK10, the starboard tyre certainly looks like it could use some air.  It also looks like there's some damage to the fairing between the wheels. 

 

The wheel also appears to have a 2-colour pattern.  My guess would be a blue inner circle with red outer, although it could be any number of other colours.  

[mhaselden]

16 hours ago, melvyn hiscock said:

One reason for thinking silver rather than clear Is the lack of see through.  

 

Hi Melvyn,

 

I've done some digging on this one and I think the see-through issue has much to do with lighting conditions at the time, particularly the direction of lighting relative to the viewer's perspective.  I can find plenty of photos of CDL fuselages that don't display see-through:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not trying to be argumentative, just offering alternate ideas.  It could be some entirely different colour, although I don't know what that might be.  It's almost certainly not yellow as I would expect that to show up darker on ortho imagery (and the contrast of red to blue in the roundels suggests this was ortho film).  

 

If it's not CDL, then silver dope is probably the most likely option.  

Edited May 13, 2020 by mhaselden

[melvyn hiscock]

It is a good point but get any oil on the fabric (you can tell that Tabloid has never been run) and bingo, it is see through. Of course, the DVII doesn’t ’quite’ chuck out the oil a rotatif (l love the French spelling) does, and if it is not silver, or indeed pink, we can’t tell, then it is relatively new fabric.

 

again, not arguing for the sake of it, but just passing in comments, other than the BE at the top, they are all Strutters, the majority of which were built in France and were silver doped.

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by melvyn hiscock

[mhaselden]

20 minutes ago, melvyn hiscock said:

It is a good point but get any oil on the fabric (you can tell that Tabloid has never been run) and bingo, it is see through. Of course, the DVII doesn’t ’quite’ chuck out the oil a rotatif (l love the French spelling) does, and if it is not silver, or indeed pink, we can’t tell, then it is relatively new fabric.

 

again, not arguing for the sake of it, but just passing in comments, other than the BE at the top, they are all Strutters, the majority of which were built in France and were silver doped.

 

 

 

Also, if the Fokker fuselage has been recovered, then I wouldn't expect there to be much oil or other detritus on the fabric.  

 

I had no idea silver dope was so prevalent during WW1 (at least for non-French types): I always thought silver dope was a postwar evolution.  

 

Just for fun, here are a few more (non-Sopwith) options :

 

 

 

 

 

Agree there are few other options on the table.  Pink would be fun...but I'm not sure I see that happening.  Grey?  Pale blue?  Pale green?  I started looking for German dope colours in case any of those might have been applied (why not use up something that's available at hand, particularly for a non-standard type like a captured Fokker?).  Unfortunately, thus far my google-fu has been weak on that particular topic.  

 

[melvyn hiscock]

The top pic is not showing but the longeron tape on the BE gives that one away as the double thickness makes it look lighter.

 

this is fun on one of those days when the chemo keep me in bed.

[melvyn hiscock]

We had some fun conversations about 30 years ago regarding the BE2C in the Musee de l’air. It has its original Blackburn badge on the tail and the markings match the only two known contemporary photos of it, but it has a green paint with an aluminium sheen it it, rather like our SPAD, but the sheen is silvery, not anodised. So it does not look over painted by the museum who have had it since about 1920. It is the wrong shade for PC10/12, and restoration started, and the fabric was put in store, years ago and then lack of manpower stopped it, so I have not seen it in aeons.

[mhaselden]

Looking again at the photo, it seems there's a clear demarcation along the upper wing leading edge, with the upper surface having a darker appearance than the lower surface.  Based on my limited understanding, this would tally with the "standard" daytime camouflage scheme with dark lozenge uppers and light lozenge undersides.

 

The lower wing appears to lack any demarcation on the leading edge and the underside looks rather dark.  I'm wondering if the lower wing actually had the dark lozenge pattern on both upper and lower surfaces.  This would be non-standard and perhaps further indicates that this aircraft was cobbled together using parts from a number of different airframes.

 

Hopefully, Melvyn or other experts will be along shortly to tell me how far off-target I am with this analysis.  

[melvyn hiscock]

51 minutes ago, mhaselden said:

Hopefully, Melvyn or other experts will be along shortly to tell me how far off-target I am with this analysis.  

Mindful that an ex is a ‘former‘ and a sport is a ‘drip under pressure...’

 

i would be more in inclined to think the tonal changes are down to nothing more than shadow on hat would have been very slow film.  I would say it was very unlikely to be upper surface lozenge on both sides, it ‘might’ be a different colour overpaint but is more likely to be lighter lozenge in shadow.

[mhaselden]

38 minutes ago, melvyn hiscock said:

Mindful that an ex is a ‘former‘ and a sport is a ‘drip under pressure...’

 

i would be more in inclined to think the tonal changes are down to nothing more than shadow on hat would have been very slow film.  I would say it was very unlikely to be upper surface lozenge on both sides, it ‘might’ be a different colour overpaint but is more likely to be lighter lozenge in shadow.

 

Hi Melvyn,

 

I, too, would have thought it unusual for upper lozenge pattern to be on both sides.  The first indicator, for me, was the lack of demarcation along the leading edge of the lower wing.  The upper wing has a clear divide between the dark upper surface and light underside lozenge schemes.  The lower wing lacks any such divide.  Now, it's possible that the upper surface lozenge pattern was wrapped around the leading edge but the undersides still appear dark, notwithstanding that we'd expect it to be in deeper shadow than the upper wing.

 

I also found this information at the Australian War Memorial website discussing differences in lozenge patterns for some of their WW1 German Air Force artifacts (https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C111049):

 

Two main schemes schemes appear to have been adopted: a daylight and a night scheme. The daylight scheme made use of a dark cloour pattern for upper surfaces and the sides of fuselages, and a light pattern, to be used on the lower surfaces of wings and the bottom of fuselages. Despite this, there were deviations. The Albatros D.Va in the AWM collection, for instance, had the lower wings covered with plain and lozenge fabric, the wings being then painted in the previous camouflage pattern for plain covered aircraft, while the under surface of the upper wing was covered in light coloured five colour lozenge fabric. The AWM’s Pfalz D.XII had the light coloured pattern fabric on both the top and bottom surfaces of the lower wings. Other captured aircraft are reported having similar use of the fabric.

 

While this isn't a smoking gun, it does suggest real aircraft displayed some deviation from standard marking theory.  I don't think it's stretching credibility too much to suggest that the bottom wing of this Fokker may have had dark lozenge on both upper and lower surfaces, particularly given the lack of a demarcation line on the leading edge. 

 

Also, I see some marked similarities when comparing the contrast between the starboard underwing roundel and the wing undersurface with the other image showing the upper wing roundels.  The blue of the roundel in both cases shows up as lighter than the adjacent lozenge pattern and shadow alone can't explain that.  

 

Cheers,
Mark

Edited May 14, 2020 by mhaselden

[melvyn hiscock]

You could well be right and no factory would hold up production just because they were a few yards short of ‘right’ material (I see this in the vintage guitar parts world too). I must admit I can make out a lighter colour but not so much I’d meet you in a betting shop. It is pretty certainly lozenge beneath as the tapes contrast, this would not have happened.

 

I’d also carefully check the dates of the reports. A lot of repainting was done right after the war and a lot of what was delivered to museums as ‘untouched‘ May well have been altered.

 

I’ve not any references to night coverings at the factories. I’d be interested to see that.

 

this is fascinating

[mhaselden]

Good spot on the rib tapes on the underside of the lower wing.  I think you're right that both wings have a fairly standard lozenge appearance, dark above and light below.  

 

Every time I look at the image I see something different.  I knew it would be hard trying to determine potential scheme options...but I didn't expect there to be so many confusing details.  I do appreciate all the sage input and correction. 

 

Cheers,
Mark 

[mhaselden]

6 hours ago, melvyn hiscock said:

I’ve not any references to night coverings at the factories. I’d be interested to see that.

 

this is fascinating

 

The AWM does have an artifact that's described as a night lozenge scheme which appears to be the regular lozenge pattern and colours but overlaid with a darkened dope to make the colours virtually indistinguishable (which begs a rather obvious question).

 

The artifact reference is here:  https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C110817