Work TcAGI under project swept-wing rocket fighter in 2WW

[Aardvark]

Hi, all!

 

I rarely visit this part of the forum, but today there is an opportunity to improve the situation somewhat!😁

 

In this interesting "what if" discussion with

@Marklo @Graham Boak

@corsaircorp

: 

I wrote that the Allies did not work on swept wings.

 

But today, in this article:

https://afirsov.livejournal.com/543039.html

was show this photo:

As is understand  from the discussion on link, this model "typically fighter"  with rocket engine on which  worked in 2WW Kuznetsov and Bisnovat under the direction of Putilov, from the very beginning sharpened by supersonic flight.  Then, according to the scheme of this aircraft, they made models (missile “drones” launched from the carrier), on which they received M = 1.18.

 

Thus, I was wrong,

work on swept wings during the 2MB period was not only in Germany but also in the USSR.

 

B.R.

Serge

[corsaircorp]

Hello Sergueï,

I did'nt know about this one, This would have been an interesting project !!

If one dig in the abandoned projects, There's surely a lot of interesting things to learn about.

I'll read the very intersting article...

She look like a Hunter, very nice aerodynamics...

Sincerely.

CC

[Flankerman]

That model looks like the Tsybin LL-3.....

 

 

 

The LL-1 had straight wings, the LL-2 had forward-swept wings and the LL-3 had swept back wings...

 

More here :- http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/tsybin/ts/1/ts1_e.htm

 

Ken

[Magpie22]

Yes, the Tsybin given a couple of pages in Gordon and Gunston's Soviet X-planes, Midland, 2000. They state that Ts-1 was commissioned by the LII-MAP in September 1945, so not strictly a WWII project. LL-1, the straight wing version, (apparently made of wood!), made some 30 flights, but did not reach Mach 1. The second A/C was built as the LL-2, (forward sweep), made some 100 flights and reached Mach 0.97. The first A/C was modified with a swept back wing but never flew in that configuration.

Peter M

 

[Aardvark]

1 hour ago, corsaircorp said:

Hello Sergueï,

You can just Sergey, but Serge or Serega (crony) are also used, also  use Seryi what translate on English as - Gray. 

😉😁

1 hour ago, corsaircorp said:

I did'nt know about this one, This would have been an interesting project !!

I myself saw this only yesterday, despite the fact that the discussion states that this photo was shown at the TsAGI exhibition in 2000.

As mentioned in the discussion on the link I gave earlier, probably Academician Buschgens

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Бюшгенс,_Георгий_Сергеевич

( I mentioned his here:

actually rewrote the history of that period of TsAGI at his discretion.

And as noted in the discussion, Bushgens was like the pirate Silver from "Treasure Island", Robert Stevenson, "everyone was afraid of him".😁

Therefore, in the history of TsAGI there are many white spots.

And apparently the study of swept wings during the war (during the evacuation to Kazan) this very big white spots.

 

1 hour ago, Flankerman said:

That model looks like the Tsybin LL-3.....

This model is probably the predecessor of both Tsybin

and Bisnovat "5":

http://airwar.ru/enc/xplane/5.html

 

which is not surprising because:

12 hours ago, Aardvark said:

model "typically fighter"  with rocket engine on which  worked in 2WW Kuznetsov and Bisnovat under the direction of Putilov,

B.w. see this vertical panel line near canopy, probably ejected cockpit was projected on this aircraft.

 

B.R.

Serge

(or Sergey, or Seryoga, or Seriy...O.K. Mr.Grey 😁😁)

Edited May 10, 2020 by Aardvark

[Graham Boak]

Interesting indeed, but with very large questions to answer. Nothing is said here to confirm that this particular model dates from WW2.  In appearance, it looks more like a development of the Tsybin than a predecessor, bring considerably larger in appearance.  What is said is that work on rocket propulsion continued in WW2, after the BS-1 that we are familiar with.  Which hasn't been said before, to my knowledge, but is not surprising.  We need to see more of the project drawings of this period before blindly accepting claims of massive leaps forward without intermediate scaffolding.

 

However, some of the German theoretical work was publicised prewar, I believe in a seminar of some kind in Italy.  So there is no Intrinsic reason why this cannot have lead to studies in Russia.  Just perhaps not this one.  The adoption of the swept wing in postwar designs does not seem to reflect any early Russian adoption of the principle.

[Magpie22]

Graham,

 

I concur re your comments on time lines of thse two A/C - both post war designs, Wing sweep probably based on German research. There were a couple of other Russian rocket powered A/C developed during WW II in addition to the BI - the Tikhonarov, (Kostikov), 302, and Florov 4302. There was also the Mikoyan I-270, flown in 1947, but also unswept wing.

 

I believe that last A/C is probably an early proposal of the Bisnovat B-5 which was developed in the late 1940s as a project for research on swept wings at Mach 1+. It was also post Ts-1, and bears an uncanny resemblance to the DFS 346 which was taken to the Soviet Union after WW II. Note also the tine engine installation. It was air-launched fom beneath a Pe-8.

 

Peter M

Edited May 11, 2020 by Magpie22
corrected an error