When did Hellenic Phantoms turn blue?

[Mountain goat]

Hi,

 

Simple question really, I hope someone here knows. When did the F-4E Phantoms of the Hellenic Air Force first lose their SEA camouflage to be painted in Aegean Blue? Some sources suggest 1982, would that be about right? Any idea which one was the first to be repainted in this fashion? Thanks!

 

Jay

 

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Mountain goat
added video

[iainpeden]

First point is that the a/c in the video isn't in the Aegean Blue scheme.

I can give you a part answer to your question, some of which I believe depends on the particular upgrade the a/c has undergone and the unit's role.

 

As far as I know all the new build a/c were delivered in the SEA scheme.

 

Some were equipped with the DIAS intereceptor system and this can be seen in the intake fairings also seen on the later USN Phantoms. Some/all (?0 of these were painted in the same scheme as the Mirage F1s - blue on top/silver underneath. However photos exist of a/c in this scheme without the intake fairings. That's the scheme in the video

 

2nd hand ones were delivered from the USAF in the Hill Gray scheme. ( the ones at Yeovilton for the D-Day fly past in 1994 for example)

 

The Aegean Blue scheme developed from the scheme used on their F-16s - first one I saw was at RIAT (Cottesmore) in 2001 (might be 2000).  I think the current fleet have all undergone the upgrade which included this.)

 

If you want more pictures and detail, F-4 Phantom by Kostas Dimitropoulos is useful.

 

I'm sure corrections/additions will follow.

 

Edit

from same book

Aegean scheme was first adopted in 1983 (a/c 01511 of 337 sqd)

I have a picture of the DIAS fairing on an SEA scheme a/c

 

edit again

2 different sources - 1 says the Mirage F1 scheme is called Aegean Blue, the other says the latest scheme is given that name.- - so it's possible my 1st sentence is wrong.

[Mountain goat]

6 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

First point is that the a/c in the video isn't in the Aegean Blue scheme.

I can give you a part answer to your question, some of which I believe depends on the particular upgrade the a/c has undergone and the unit's role.

 

As far as I know all the new build a/c were delivered in the SEA scheme.

 

Some were equipped with the DIAS intereceptor system and this can be seen in the intake fairings also seen on the later USN Phantoms. Some/all (?0 of these were painted in the same scheme as the Mirage F1s - blue on top/silver underneath. However photos exist of a/c in this scheme without the intake fairings. That's the scheme in the video

 

2nd hand ones were delivered from the USAF in the Hill Gray scheme. ( the ones at Yeovilton for the D-Day fly past in 1994 for example)

 

The Aegean Blue scheme developed from the scheme used on their F-16s - first one I saw was at RIAT (Cottesmore) in 2001 (might be 2000).  I think the current fleet have all undergone the upgrade which included this.)

 

If you want more pictures and detail, F-4 Phantom by Kostas Dimitropoulos is useful.

 

I'm sure corrections/additions will follow.

 

Edit

from same book

Aegean scheme was first adopted in 1983 (a/c 01511 of 337 sqd)

I have a picture of the DIAS fairing on an SEA scheme a/c

 

Thank you - especially the pointer to the book! Really helpful.

 

Jay

[CT7567]

27 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

First point is that the a/c in the video isn't in the Aegean Blue scheme.

 

27 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

The Aegean Blue scheme developed from the scheme used on their F-16s - first one I saw was at RIAT (Cottesmore) in 2001 (might be 2000).  I think the current fleet have all undergone the upgrade which included this.)

You are confusing the "Aegean Blue" scheme with the later F-16 multi-tone gray scheme (sometimes referred to as "Ghost"). 

 

The Aegean Blue  scheme was worn by French and Greek Mirage F.1s, and adopted as you describe by a select group of F-4Es. Colors were overall blue-gray above with aluminum/silver undersides. Radome and front of the gun muzzle fairing remained black.  This scheme is seen in the video posted (although the colors seem to be filtered strangely, the blue seeming more gray/green than reality). Heavy fading/weathering may sometimes make this scheme appear to have multiple colors on the upper surfaces, but if the radome is black and the underside (gear doors, etc) are silver-gray then it's in the Aegean Blue scheme.  I suspect the reference above to "Aegean Blue" being adopted on Phantoms circa 1983 is correct.

 

The multicolor scheme used originally on Greek F-16C/Ds was the same three-color camouflage first worn by some U.S. Navy F-16N adversary trainers. Main colors are FS 36307, 36251, and 35237. In Greek service these colors fade heavily so it's rare to see photos that closely match the FS standards. The F-16s were first delivered in 1988.

 

The upgraded F-4Es remaining in HAF service all adopted this new 3-tone camouflage starting circa 2000.  Over time it has been informally referred to as "ghost," or "Aegean ghost," but despite inclusion of FS35237 blue in the scheme, it is *not* the blue-gray over silver scheme known as "Aegean Blue."

[Mountain goat]

Thanks guys, a treasure trove of info here. So to recap: the new-build Phantoms were delivered in SEA, and, at least in 110 Pterix as in the video, repainted in Aegean Blue from 1983 starting with 01511, and in the 1990s/ 2000s Aegean Ghost. Got it. 

 

Jay

[iainpeden]

Take the info on01511 with care as I might have Aegean blue and the ghost scheme mixed up. However if you are doing a specific scheme there are many f-4 pictures in the book I quoted so I could help there.

[scotthldr]

Aegean Blue consists of

 

FS35164 upper

FS17178 lower
 

1983 would fit in with it’s first appearance. Several online references suggest 01511(72-1511) was the first a/c to wear this scheme, this a/c was definitely the first to be retrofitted with DIAS in 1982, so repaint after upgrade seems very plausible. Of note is this a/c was also the first F-4 to wear the ‘Aegean Ghost’ scheme in the later half of the 90’s. A common misconception is that the ‘Aegean Ghost’ scheme started to appear with the AUP, when in fact it started to appear in the second half of the 90’s. 01511 was lost before the AUP commenced.

 

Only a/c with 015** were retrofitted with DIAS and only a/c with 71*** were delivered with TISEO, along with the later delivered SRA ex US ANG  a/c(not 100% that all had TISEO). So no DIAS/ TISEO together. However ‘Aegean Blue’ was to be found on both 015** and 71*** a/c.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

[iainpeden]

Jay

The F-4 book is published by Constantidis publications (in1997) and has the ISBN 960-8426-01-4

 

Happy modelling.

[Mountain goat]

4 hours ago, iainpeden said:

Jay

The F-4 book is published by Constantidis publications (in1997) and has the ISBN 960-8426-01-4

 

Happy modelling.

Thank you!

 

Meanwhile, here's another video I found from around 1983 or a bit later (except the red-looking bits, that's obvs 1970s); the characteristic 'PA/ ПА' titles on the forward fuselage weren't applied yet. None of the F-4Es here have the DIAS mods though.

 

 

Jay

Edited May 10, 2020 by Mountain goat

[scotthldr]

I’ve looked a bit more into this. It turns out there is no direct connection to a/c being repainted in ‘Aegean Blue’ when they went through DIAS upgrade. I’ve came across a/c that were painted ‘Blue’ with no DIAS, only for that a/c to appear at a later date with DIAS.

 

The first batch of F-4’s (Ser 015***)Peace Icarus I, went to 338M and 339M at Andravida with second batch (Ser 71***) under Peace Icarus II also going to Andravida to expand the two existing  units but also to reform 337M, 4 days later 337M relocated to 110W at Larissa.

 

I assume that all three units operated a mix of Peace Icarus I&II a/c for the first few years as in 1981 337M and 338M swapped airframes, thus making 337M solely equipped with Peace Icarus I a/c in preparation for the DIAS upgrade. 337M operated in the Fighter Inception role and therefore would’ve utilised DIAS, whereas 338M & 339M were both Fighter Bomber units and would’ve utilised the TISEO system that came with the Peace Icarus II a/c. However there wasn’t enough TISEO equipped a/c to fully equip both units so they operated a mix of Peace Icarus I & II a/c up until the early 90’s when it all changed again with the arrival of the ex US ANG jets under the SRA. 

[Mountain goat]

54 minutes ago, scotthldr said:

I’ve looked a bit more into this. It turns out there is no direct connection to a/c being repainted in ‘Aegean Blue’ when they went through DIAS upgrade. I’ve came across a/c that were painted ‘Blue’ with no DIAS, only for that a/c to appear at a later date with DIAS.

 

The first batch of F-4’s (Ser 015***)Peace Icarus I, went to 338M and 339M at Andravida with second batch (Ser 71***) under Peace Icarus II also going to Andravida to expand the two existing  units but also to reform 337M, 4 days later 337M relocated to 110W at Larissa.

 

I assume that all three units operated a mix of Peace Icarus I&II a/c for the first few years as in 1981 337M and 338M swapped airframes, thus making 337M solely equipped with Peace Icarus I a/c in preparation for the DIAS upgrade. 337M operated in the Fighter Inception role and therefore would’ve utilised DIAS, whereas 338M & 339M were both Fighter Bomber units and would’ve utilised the TISEO system that came with the Peace Icarus II a/c. However there wasn’t enough TISEO equipped a/c to fully equip both units so they operated a mix of Peace Icarus I & II a/c up until the early 90’s when it all changed again with the arrival of the ex US ANG jets under the SRA. 

Smashing stuff. I was slowly reaching a similar deduction in my head, so it's great to this confirmed by you. So, although I now understand F-4E 01511 / 72-1511 is both the first DIAS-equipped Phantom as well as the first blue one, DIAS modifications and repaints for airframes were generally probably not concurrent.

 

Additionally I have a creeping suspicion this airframe, as a DIAS proving model, perhaps would have been painted simultaneously with the modification in 1982. I can imagine it was then held by Hellenic Airspace Industries (which presumably undertook the modification) for tests, after which it would have found its way to its squadron in 1983. I have a reason to think this particular airframe would have been repainted at the same time: odds are there would have been a small roll-out ceremony with a bunch of officers and industry people and ouzo to mark a new capability for the Air Force. Then again, the repaint and roll-out could have happened after the testing phase. If the roll-out happened at all.

 

I think I'm over-thinking things again... 😄

 

Jay

Edited May 10, 2020 by Mountain goat

[scotthldr]

Problem is that this kind of information coming out of Greece was non existent in the 70’s, 80’s and into the late 90’s, so a lot of it is based on memory and third hand info( including what I believe).

 

Just to cause more confusion on the subject, Icarus Productions decal sheet 48-003, has the following on it as a couple of choices.

 

01511 with DIAS, still wearing SEA scheme in 1984 operated by 339M at Andravida ???

 

however

 

it also has 01511 as the first to wear the ‘Ghost’ scheme in 1996, but says it was also the first to wear the ‘Blue’ in 1983 ???

So even on this sheet there is confliction on when this a/c went to ‘Blue’.
 

Best thing for us modellers to do is to pick either an airframe or timeframe not both and take it from there.

 

I would be very interested in seeing a picture of a DIAS equipped F-4E in SEA, as I’ve never seen one.

 

[iainpeden]

This is really going to muddy the waters.

 

The first picture I have of an F-4 in the SEA scheme and DIAS is in my Greek book and is only of the starboard intake - no serial numbers visible. I assumed it was an E. The caption mentions  01511 as receiving the fit in 1983. The English does not specifically say the picture of 01511

 

Then I had a look at Spirit in the Sky - the picture in there of an RF-4E of 348Mira in SEA scheme also has the DIAS fit. The serial (small on fin) is not readable but it can only be 1 of 8 as it's a slatted one.

[Mountain goat]

Cheers guys - Blimey - this is getting scientific!

 

19 hours ago, scotthldr said:

Problem is that this kind of information coming out of Greece was non existent in the 70’s, 80’s and into the late 90’s, so a lot of it is based on memory and third hand info( including what I believe).

 

Just to cause more confusion on the subject, Icarus Productions decal sheet 48-003, has the following on it as a couple of choices.

 

01511 with DIAS, still wearing SEA scheme in 1984 operated by 339M at Andravida ???

 

however

 

it also has 01511 as the first to wear the ‘Ghost’ scheme in 1996, but says it was also the first to wear the ‘Blue’ in 1983 ???

 

7 hours ago, iainpeden said:

This is really going to muddy the waters.

 

The first picture I have of an F-4 in the SEA scheme and DIAS is in my Greek book and is only of the starboard intake - no serial numbers visible. I assumed it was an E. The caption mentions  01511 as receiving the fit in 1983. The English does not specifically say the picture of 01511

I'm getting suspicious now. On websites like airliners or airfighters, quite often you'll find pictures with obviously wrong dates in the data. In fact the reported date isn't ever 100% trustworthy I find. When I took up a couple of the errors with the person posting them, he sent me a picture of the handwritten date on the slide - it was near unreadable, and indeed I could see how one would arrive at a different date that way. I also see how often the combination 01511 and 1983 is quoted and requoted by all kinds of sources. I wonder about the original source - what if a handwritten 5 was mistaken for a 3?

 

Still, 1983 as the year Phantoms were being repainted would make sense, because I have seen images of at least four different blue F-4Es now without the PA/ ПА markings on the nose section - these were applied from 1985 onwards. I do now have some doubt 01511 actually was the first Blue F-4E however... 

 

Oh well.

 

Jay

Edited May 11, 2020 by Mountain goat

[iainpeden]

Jay

As a matter of interest, is this leading up to a completed model or just idle curiosity?😄

Whichever, it's certainly dragging out some interesting stuff.

Iain

[Mountain goat]

6 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

Jay

As a matter of interest, is this leading up to a completed model or just idle curiosity?😄

Whichever, it's certainly dragging out some interesting stuff.

Iain

Well, there's a couple of Mirage F.1CGs that need company. So yes definitely research for something that'll end up plastic. I'm moving houses at the moment so no time to do any modelling - although painting walls allows me time to wonder about stuff... in great detail 😄

 

Jay

[scotthldr]

I don't have any reason to doubt that 01511 was the first to be repainted in Blue, or the first through the DIAS, I would however like to see the photo of the SEA scheme jet with DIAS, as I have a suspicion that the a/c will be a RF-4.

 

A few years back when I was researching for my own RF-4 build, I started to compile a list of all the Hellenic F/RF-4's in service and what mods each one carried and when, although I never got to finish it as other projects got in the way and ultimately it fell by the wayside. However I've dug it out and looking through it I can share this info.

 

No F/RF's were delivered with DIAS. DIAS was a retrofit planned for the Peace Icarus I batch only and all of the Peace Icarus II delivered RF's, however not all of those a/c received it. 

 

Only five RF's were positively retrofitted with DIAS, maybe a sixth but I've been unable to confirm. RF's by the looks of it received the upgrade after the F's around 87 time frame

 

RF-4E

77-1762 YES
77-1763 YES
77-1764 YES
77-1765 YES
77-1766 YES

77-0357  NO Crashed in 1979
77-0358  NO Crashed in 1985
77-1761   ??  Crashed in 1987, unable to confirm if DIAS equipped, if it did it didn't for long.

 

F-4E

01500 YES 
01501 YES 

01502 ??? crashed 1984
01503 NO
01504 NO

01505 NO

01506 NO crashed 1974
01507 YES 
01508 NO
01509 NO
01510 YES

01511 YES
01512 YES  
01513 YES 

01514 NO

01515 ??? crashed 1987

01516 YES crashed 2004

01517 NO
01518 YES 

01519 YES crashed 2000
01520 NO
01521 YES 
01522 YES 
01523 YES                           
01524 YES 
01525 YES 
01526 NO

01527 ??? crashed 1987
01528 YES 
01529 NO 

01530 YES 

01531 ??? crashed 1995

01532 ??? crashed 1984

01533 NO, crashed 1983, highly doubtful it was retrofitted beforehand

01534 YES

01535 YES

 

On a side note at least six PEACE ICARUS II 7***** a/c wore 'Aegean Blue'

 

71744

71754  

71755 

71758 

71759

71760 

 

I’ve corrected some errors and omissions I noted after I initially posted. I really need to finish this list.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by scotthldr

[scotthldr]

47 minutes ago, Mountain goat said:

 although painting walls allows me time to wonder about stuff... in great detail 😄

 

 

As long as you don't get carried away and end up painting your living room in 'Aegean Blue' or 'Ghost'😄

[Mountain goat]

On 5/11/2020 at 7:33 PM, scotthldr said:

A few years back when I was researching for my own RF-4 build, I started to compile a list of all the Hellenic F/RF-4's in service and what mods each one carried and when, although I never got to finish it as other projects got in the way and ultimately it fell by the wayside. However I've dug it out and looking through it I can share this info.

This is extremely useful information for all HAF Phantom modellers. Thank you for sharing. If you finish the list please post a thread about it because it's a great tool for Phantom Phreaks as well as for those of us that missed out on essential HAF literature in the past.

 

On 5/11/2020 at 7:36 PM, scotthldr said:

As long as you don't get carried away and end up painting your living room in 'Aegean Blue' or 'Ghost'😄

Look now you did it - I can't get the idea out of my head! 😆

 

Jay

Edited May 12, 2020 by Mountain goat