Red tail paint input

[Patton610]

I'm building the 1/48 tamiya 51b/c and have located some decals to turn it into a tuskegee version. The issue I am having is that virtually all the recent  photos and films show a bright ted that the decal instructions call guards red.a basic search for guards red brings up porche.  Clearly a very distinctive red and visually pleasing, but I've yet to find any source that mentions  any other red than insignia red and ana 619. Is there anything out there that provides any guidance on this or is it a conflict between an absence of sources and hollywood...which just chose a bright red because it filmed better? 

[Troy Smith]

15 minutes ago, Patton610 said:

any other red than insignia red and ana 619

 

Insignia Red is ANA 619

 

 

ask yourself this,  where are a fighter unit in Italy gets paint.  

16 minutes ago, Patton610 said:

Is there anything out there that provides any guidance on this or is it a conflict between an absence of sources and hollywood...which just chose a bright red because it filmed better? 

 

what do you think  

ANA619 is a bright red anyway.

 

If he sees this, the chap who could give the best answer is @Dana Bell

[Patton610]

I found a sort of scale that provided  various shades of insignia red with ana 619 being on the brighter end, but the issue was not the identity of ana 619, but the whether there was any justification for a brighter red to be used such as seen in the recent films 

[Scott Hemsley]

I may be way off base on this, but I would think that if a combat aircraft were painted in 'special markings/nose art' etc., 'in the field' …  they would only have the paint that was commonly used and available at their station.  Also, being in a combat zone, I'd think those paints would be a bit on the subdued side of the spectrum, as opposed to bright shades of a particular colour.  

 

Scott

[Troy Smith]

21 minutes ago, Scott Hemsley said:

I may be way off base on this, but I would think that if a combat aircraft were painted in 'special markings/nose art' etc., 'in the field' …  they would only have the paint that was commonly used and available at their station.  Also, being in a combat zone, I'd think those paints would be a bit on the subdued side of the spectrum, as opposed to bright shades of a particular colour.  

 

Scott

 

the USAAF had a bright red.   With the removal of camouflage,  the point of red tails and the like was identification. 

 

 

 

[fubar57]

In the book. "The Tuskegee Airmen - Black Heroes of World War II", all it says is, "...The ground crews got out their paint cans and quickly painted the tails red....."

[JWM]

4 hours ago, fubar57 said:

"...The ground crews got out their paint cans and quickly painted the tails red....."

I can bet, that they did not paid for it in a chemical store... That was in an army, so it must be "organized" (catch 22)

Regards

J-W

[72modeler]

An interesting discussion, to say the least! I don't have any immediate plans to do a 332nd FG Mustang, but if I did, it would be a P-51B. This discussion did spark my interest, and I was able to find the article linked below. I hope it will be useful to many of you. While the red paint used was not identified, my thinking is it almost had to be either insignia red or possibly an RAF color, as it is well-known that the USAAF used available RAF paints. I seem to recall an article or period photo that showed 332nd FG Mustangs and the color was darker than insignia red, but not a dull color like RAF roundel red. The red reminded me of a well-known photo of a 4th FG pilot standing on the wing of his P-51D while it was being run up, and the red ID markings were clearly darker than insignia red. Knowing the pitfalls of using period color photos for reference as well as not intending to open the dreaded , I offer this as food for thought. If anybody has a copy of Battle Colors vol 3, Insignia and tactical Markings of the 9th AF in WW2,  there might be some useful information or photos.

Mike

 

http://tuskegeeairmen.org/wp-content/uploads/Origin-of-the-RedTails.pdf

Edited May 8, 2020 by 72modeler
edited text

[Graham Boak]

There is evidence that the 8th and 9th AFs used RAF paint in the UK, but I rather doubt that the 12th and 15th would be using any of it in Italy.  Other than for topping up their Spitfires/Beaufighters, perhaps.  However there is also evidence that the red used on spinners in North Africa was brighter than the dull red used on roundels, if nothing else then perhaps the remnants of prewar Red?

Edited May 7, 2020 by Graham Boak

[Toryu]

On 07/05/2020 at 17:46, 72modeler said:

The red reminded me of a well-known photo of a 4th FG pilot standing on the wing of his P-51D while it was being run up, and the red ID markings were clearly darker than insignia red.

Early 4th FG nose markings appeared brighter than on later D-models - maybe because red was painted over the white noses. The same is true for the green noses of 359th FG Mustangs, where the bright green became duller with the changeover to NM. It seems that some 8th AF nose markings were brighter during OD times (possible to make the colour more visible). This points at locally available paints from whatever source (RAF or any local provider). In the case of the early 4th FG red it is know that it was weak and it took several layers to cover the former white colour - doesn't sound to me like a regular AF paint.

For 332nd FG Mustangs I would also count on some local paint manufacturer in view of the huge amounts necessary for painting the large tail areas.

[silberpferd]

15th AAF fighter groups had red spinners as recognition markings, so we can assume that red paint was easily available for those units. 31st FG also had red striped tails.

 

Laurent

Edited May 7, 2020 by silberpferd

[Chuck1945]

Just being picky, but the correct fighter group is the 332 FG, not 322.

[Toryu]

1 hour ago, silberpferd said:

15th AAF fighter groups had red spinners as recognition markings, so we can assume that red paint was easily available for those units. 31st FG also had red striped tails.

 

Laurent

One more reason to assume it was sourced locally. How many tons of insignia red would the Forces ship to Italy?

[Graham Boak]

Quite a lot, I should think.  The chances of Italian aircraft paint suppliers still working in the south of Italy after all the bombing, shelling and general warfare - "It's OK, we only did that so we could buy some paint."  The Allied forces did have an tremendous logistic tail providing everything they needed.  Aircraft are not painted with any old paint.

[Smithy]

4 hours ago, Toryu said:

Early 4th FG nose markings appeared brighter than on later D-models.

 

I don't think this is a true statement at all and cannot be used as a rule of thumb because it's not borne out by the photographic evidence.

 

If you look at period colour photos in books on the 4th by for example: Fry and Ethell; White; Speer; Davis; etc they clearly show that reds were used on later 4th mounts such as P-51Ds which were certainly as bright as the reds used on earlier Bs and Cs. There are numerous examples of this.

[72modeler]

5 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

Just being picky, but the correct fighter group is the 332 FG, not 322.

Yep- my bad! A typo, but I should have proofed the post before sending it- thanks for the correction, Chuck; I have edited my original post.

Mike

[silberpferd]

9 hours ago, Toryu said:

One more reason to assume it was sourced locally. How many tons of insignia red would the Forces ship to Italy?

Given the fact that, obviously, paint was shipped to remote Pacific islands and Alaska places, I can't see why paint would not be shipped to Italy too, if ordered? Some 15th AAF B-24 groups had red tail markings as well, IIRC.

 

Laurent

[Giorgio N]

11 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Quite a lot, I should think.  The chances of Italian aircraft paint suppliers still working in the south of Italy after all the bombing, shelling and general warfare - "It's OK, we only did that so we could buy some paint."  The Allied forces did have an tremendous logistic tail providing everything they needed.  Aircraft are not painted with any old paint.

 

Biggest paint suppliers were located in the North anyway, there was very little industrial base in Southern Italy before the war so paint from a local supplier would have been practically impossible. Said that, not small quantities of Regia Aeronautica paints remained in the South and were used even after the war, so in theory paint from existing stocks could have been available... However, red was not really a colour that the Italians used much during the war, it was only used for codes and, in a very few cases, for recognition purposes. So there wouldn't have been large quantities of red available anyway.

In any case, I can only agree that there's little reason why USAAF units would have had to resort to local sources of paint when they had access to huge supplies of everything through their logistic system. One of the most frequent comment by Italian sources in the South was how amazed they were by the quantity of materials available to US forces. Material of every kind, including stuff that to the eyes of those who had served in a much poorer army almost made no sense to have.

Red aircraft paint would have been available in quantity and red was not only the standard theatre recognition colour but was also used by many units for their markings

 

[Toryu]

@Graham Boak @silberpferd @Giorgio N

 

OK, gentlemen, your arguments make sense and I accept them as the more likely reality.

Secondary and tertiary military supplies (incl. paint) were also sourced from local stock and suppliers in the UK, however, and in no small amounts. I think it was a question of priority and availability.

[Patton610]

I'm doing the tamiya 1/48 p51B/c  and found both guards red and insignia red in model master acrylic.  From everything I've read, therecwere multiple paths to the same shade,  add to that the fact that most aircraft have faded to some point or another, but  outside of a kind of artisan paint company that I believe was on kickstarter (and naval paint at that) a while back I have not located faded versions of any  paint. So it seems like the jury is out on if it's a faded darker red or an entirely different shade than what's in the books. That said my sample size is small. I read the AK real color manual that is available on google books. The websites are more varied, but I have not found anything specific, just guidance on the patterns and general color. 

[whiskey]

@Patton610 (hey I'm a Patton!🙃) I'd say go with your gut on what looks best judging off of known photographs and what other modelers have done with their kits. Here's an example:

 

https://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal6/5401-5500/gal5499-Mustang-Garcia/00.shtm

[Patton610]

I ended up going with insignia red, because well... my choice was made for me when I looked at the decals. Despite them calling for a brighter red, the decals themselves seem to match insignia red. Grabbed an enamel bottle along with the acrylic though. Felt like I was painting with mud ... but after I removed it, it left an interesting discoloration on the vallejo white aluminium under it... sort of a purplish tinge that reminded me of discoloration on chrome.