WV908 Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 Hi all, Does anyone know how the Red Dean missiles and pylons / carriers were fitted to the Canberra trials aircraft? I'm specifically looking for info on WD935, the nose of which survives locally to me at Doncaster Cheers, WV908 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 I have the Freightdog set for the P.12 which bases the missile installation on the proposal documentation with the missiles on the wingtips. Whether that means they could't find anything else I don't know. The Crowood book on the Canberra says:- The Canberra was selected as the missile's launch platform and the seventh production B.2, WD935, was delivered to Vickers' test section on the airfield at Wisley, three or four miles from the works at Weybridge, on 8 August 1951. The company also had production facilities at Hurn and WD935 went there for the necessary engineering. As a missile was to be carried under each wing, local strengthening of the mainplanes was included in the schedule of work on the aircraft. The conversion was completed in October 1953 and a first flight, with an aerodynamic test missile, was made in january 1954. Wisley airfield was on a plateau and on 21 September 1955 WD935 suffered brake failure while rolling after touchdown and finished up in a field far too close for comfort to the main Portsmouth road. Its use on the Red Dean programme was rather curtailed after the accident; another B.2, WD942, which was in Australia at the time, and had been delivered to Wisley on 28 September 1951 to undertake specific tasks, took over the damaged Canberra's part of the programme. @canberra kid will know more if anyone does. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WV908 Posted May 5, 2020 Author Share Posted May 5, 2020 (edited) Thanks @rossm This is the problem - any documentation that is around lists the theoretical P.12 attachment point as the wingtips, mounted on strengthened PR.9 style wings. It sounds like this strengthening was to be built in during production and as WD935's strengthening was retrofitted one would imagine it was external, which begs the question of if the trial pylons / missiles were mounted further inboard. I'd also quite like to know how she was painted. Thanks, WV908 EDIT: The Canberra Tribute site lists the pylons as 'underwing carriers' which was much of the basis of my query. Edited May 5, 2020 by WV908 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 It does say "As a missile was to be carried under each wing", so I imagine WD 935 was proving the feasibility of launching the missile from a Canberra, not the exact final design - unless that had moved on or the statement is not quite accurate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qn30jEkPz7 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 (edited) There are two photos in Dan Sharp's Secret Jets of Cold War Britain of WD956 with under wing pylons for Red Dean trials including one of the missile firing. There is an illustration from the P.12 brochure which shows Blue Jays on underwing stations, wingtip tanks and the ventral gun pack Edited May 6, 2020 by LostCosmonauts 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 17 minutes ago, LostCosmonauts said: There are two photos in Dan Sharp's Secret Jets of Cold War Britain of WD956 with under wing pylons for Red Dean trials including one of the missile firing. There is an illustration from the P.12 brochure which shows Blue Jays on underwing stations, wingtip tanks and the ventral gun pack Seems like the normal Canberra wing pylon location? Interesting lumps under the wingtips and is that a radar in the nose or a standard glazed bomber nose? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qn30jEkPz7 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 (edited) There’s a sharper pic and some description of the trials at https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Hoc7AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT130&lpg=PT130&dq=canberra+wd956&source=bl&ots=4ISTUhOUVG&sig=ACfU3U1qgQsHPIDzLuCeeJC2OT6L3fuZzQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjkqfTZkp_pAhUOTRUIHac6DL4Q6AEwAnoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=canberra wd956&f=false Describes them as sideways and forward looking camera pods and if you scroll back a page there is a neat diagram of the fittings Edited May 10, 2020 by LostCosmonauts fixing typo 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 On 5/3/2020 at 10:35 PM, WV908 said: Hi all, Does anyone know how the Red Dean missiles and pylons / carriers were fitted to the Canberra trials aircraft? I'm specifically looking for info on WD935, the nose of which survives locally to me at Doncaster Cheers, WV908 Sorry I'm a bit late to the party, is this the sort of thing? John 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WV908 Posted May 6, 2020 Author Share Posted May 6, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, LostCosmonauts said: There are two photos in Dan Sharp's Secret Jets of Cold War Britain of WD956 with under wing pylons for Red Dean trials including one of the missile firing. There is an illustration from the P.12 brochure which shows Blue Jays on underwing stations, wingtip tanks and the ventral gun pack 43 minutes ago, canberra kid said: Sorry I'm a bit late to the party, is this the sort of thing? John What can I say chaps but Thankyou. What you've both provided is absolutely perfect and I have no reason to believe that WD935 would have been fitted out or painted any different. The chequer markings will be interesting to do, but I look forward to scratching the parts for my Canberra build. Cheers, WV908 Edited May 6, 2020 by WV908 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 18 minutes ago, WV908 said: What can I say chaps but Thankyou. What you've both provided is absolutely perfect and I have no reason to believe that WD935 would have been fitted out or painted any different. The chequer markings will be interesting to do, but I look forward to scratching the parts for my Canberra build. Cheers, WV908 I do have a photo of WD935 with the Red Dean test vehicle and the pylon is the same as on WD956 but the weapon is silver not black, the underside of the wing is black so I assume she is in standard Medium Sea Grey and Black scheme. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WV908 Posted May 6, 2020 Author Share Posted May 6, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, canberra kid said: I do have a photo of WD935 with the Red Dean test vehicle and the pylon is the same as on WD956 but the weapon is silver not black, the underside of the wing is black so I assume she is in standard Medium Sea Grey and Black scheme. John Thanks John, With the missile being silver I would assume the markings on it are black, or did it looks like the extant example at Cosford? Cheers, WV908 Edited May 6, 2020 by WV908 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 Yes black I'll put the photo up later tomorrow when I have more time John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilfergylee Posted September 27, 2020 Share Posted September 27, 2020 I have recently used the information in John Forbat's book to produce a sketch drawing of the Mk.1 Red Dean. It's not to scale but it's a start. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 I can't scale my screen exactly but it looks like Freightdog aren't too far out 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilfergylee Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, rossm said: I can't scale my screen exactly but it looks like Freightdog aren't too far out Thanks @rossm, I think I need to re-scale my drawings because either mine is too long or the model is too short! As an aside, is that model 1/48 or 1/72? I would much appreciate a link to the item on Freightdog's site as I can't find it. Cheers, Neil Edited September 28, 2020 by neilfergylee Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 I'm not sure you can draw any conclusions on scale from my photo, all I did was lay the part on my computer screen! The missile is part of the 1/72 conversion set for the P.12 Canberra all-weather fighter project https://www.scalemates.com/kits/freightdog-models-scc7210-ee-p12-all-weather-fighter-canberra--204883# It seems to be out of production but if you are interested I could be persuaded to sell mine as it's well down my list of projects - PM me if so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 I expect you clever people already know this but BTW there is a real RED DEAN on display at the Brooklands Museum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 11 minutes ago, Seahawk said: I expect you clever people already know this but BTW there is a real RED DEAN on display at the Brooklands Museum. Arrr, I didn't know that but 'tis a long way from home m'booty 😁 Seriously, going back up the thread the trials missile seems to have a rounded nose (radar?) but the model has a pointy nose (IR?) so Blue Jay? and was that just the designation of the IR homing system and the carrier missile was still a Red Dean? I'm a bit confused, as you can probably tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilfergylee Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 (edited) On 28/09/2020 at 16:55, rossm said: Seriously, going back up the thread the trials missile seems to have a rounded nose (radar?) but the model has a pointy nose (IR?) so Blue Jay? and was that just the designation of the IR homing system and the carrier missile was still a Red Dean? I'm a bit confused, as you can probably tell. Right, strap in for some serious Red Dean action. It doesn't help that Red Dean and Firestreak (neé Blue Jay) look so similar from a distance. However, Red Dean is a Behemoth, 16 feet long against the Firestreak's 10 feet with everything else scaled-up. Just today I created my first model of a Red Dean in 1/48 and here it is alongside a 1/48 Firestreak. Ignore the green bands, it's just filler. As for the shape, the development rounds had a hemispherical nose as in the images above, but as you can see below, the production Red Dean was scheduled to have a more streamlined nose: @WV908, I too plan to build a Red Dean trials Canberra having been influenced by Dave Forster's excellent book 'Black Box Canberras' (http://www.crecy.co.uk/black-box-canberras). Specifically, plan to model B.2 WH660, which had a long radar nose, plus the Light Slate Grey / Medium Sea Grey / PRU Blue colour scheme. What's not to like? 😀 WH660 never carried Red Deans but was slated to do so until the project was cancelled. It promises to be an interesting Christmas project! Cheers, Neil Edited December 1, 2020 by neilfergylee 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilfergylee Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, neilfergylee said: (Duplicate post deleted) Edited December 1, 2020 by neilfergylee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 10 hours ago, neilfergylee said: Right, strap in for some serious Red Dean action. It doesn't help that Red Dean and Firestreak (neé Blue Jay) look so similar from a distance. However, Red Dean is a Behemoth, 16 feet long against the Firestreak's 10 feet with everything else scaled-up. Just today I created my first model of a Red Dean in 1/48 and here it is alongside a 1/48 Firestreak. Ignore the green bands, it's just filler. As for the shape, the development rounds had a hemispherical nose as in the images above, but as you can see below, the production Red Dean was scheduled to have a more streamlined nose: @WV908, I too plan to build a Red Dean trials Canberra having been influenced by Dave Forster's excellent book 'Black Box Canberras' (http://www.crecy.co.uk/black-box-canberras). Specifically, plan to model B.2 WH660, which had a long radar nose, plus the Light Slate Grey / Medium Sea Grey / PRU Blue colour scheme. What's not to like? 😀 WH660 never carried Red Deans but was slated to do so until the project was cancelled. It promises to be an interesting Christmas project! Cheers, Neil Is that a mock up of an underwing mount on something with lots of sweepback (Lightning)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilfergylee Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 7 minutes ago, rossm said: Is that a mock up of an underwing mount on something with lots of sweepback (Lightning)? It was a mockup of the 'Thin wing Javelin'. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 4 minutes ago, neilfergylee said: It was a mockup of the 'Thin wing Javelin'. Neil A real life WHIF 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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