1980s NATO traffic north - south?

[Mountain goat]

Hi all,

 

I hope this is the right place to ask this, couldn't find a more appropriate one - it's a really obscure subject. 

 

So I'm planning to display several aircraft types in NATO service together. Having done a little research it seems aircraft stationed at southern German bases would often frequent bases on the other side of the Alps in Northern Italy, Aviano being a popular destination it seems. My question is: Would those aircraft have taken the long way over France or would they have had permission to overfly neutral Austria (assuming Switzerland was out of the question) to reach those bases? I'm thinking early 1980s by the way.

 

Thank you, Jay

[klubman01]

When I was part of the UK E-3 AWACS fleet, we regularly deployed to Aviano to monitor the former Yugoslavia in the early/mid nineties.  To get to one of our orbits over Lake Balaton in Hungary, we flew via Graz, Austria.  As I recall, we didn't need any special permission other than the filed flight plan.

 

Not, perhaps, the time frame you mentioned, but maybe of use to you.

[Work In Progress]

Yep. Non-NATO but non-hostile countries are straightforward for overflight by members of NATO air forces in much the same way as a civilian flight. You don't want to barge in unannounced but if they are expecting you it's fine. Same for Switzerland.

 

We do, after all, see both Swiss and Austrian air force types training in UK airspace, with permission.  Plenty go through the Mach loop!

Edited May 3, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Rob de Bie]

Not an answer to your question, since it relates to the sixties, but I read several accounts of Dutch F-84F taking the shortcut over Austria without permission. They simply went low-level, and apparently that did not set off alarms. Or the Austrians accepted it.

 

Rob

[Mountain goat]

Thanks all - 

1 hour ago, Work In Progress said:

Yep. Non-NATO but non-hostile countries are straightforward for overflight by members of NATO air forces in much the same way as a civilian flight. You don't want to barge in unannounced but if they are expecting you it's fine. Same for Switzerland.

 

We do, after all, see both Swiss and Austrian air force types training in UK airspace, with permission.  Plenty go through the Mach loop!

But the Cold War was a different time though? IIRC the Swiss and Austrians did not start using NATO facilities until the Cold War cooled down from the late 1980s/ early 1990s but happy to stand corrected. The reason for my thread question in the first place is because I would have thought that Switzerland and perhaps also Austria would have been protective of their neutral status and thus weary to be seen to 'favour' NATO in allowing overflights?

 

1 hour ago, Rob de Bie said:

Not an answer to your question, since it relates to the sixties, but I read several accounts of Dutch F-84F taking the shortcut over Austria without permission. They simply went low-level, and apparently that did not set off alarms. Or the Austrians accepted it.

 

Rob

Really? That is interesting. Austria didn't have much of an air defence in those days so there's perhaps that. You wouldn't have any sources would you because I really like reading up on these accounts of derring-do...😁.

 

Jay

[exdraken]

At least in Austria there werr protest if flights were not approved

.... up until even the 90ies, when Drakens intercepted F-117s hiding behind tanker aircraft....

 

There is a famous incident when Saab 105s intercepted a Turkish Transall and forced it to land in Innsbruck?...

During the Kosovo war Allieds needed to fly around Austria considerably lenghtening flights!

 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by exdraken

[Mountain goat]

11 minutes ago, exdraken said:

There is a famous incident when Saab 105s intercepted a Turkish Transall and forced it to land in Innsbruck?...

 

Thank you! Would that episode have taken place in 1988?

 

Jay

[Work In Progress]

1 hour ago, Mountain goat said:

But the Cold War was a different time though? IIRC the Swiss and Austrians did not start using NATO facilities until the Cold War cooled down from the late 1980s/ early 1990s but happy to stand corrected. The reason for my thread question in the first place is because I would have thought that Switzerland and perhaps also Austria would have been protective of their neutral status and thus weary to be seen to 'favour' NATO in allowing overflights?

I think you are over-thinking this. Switzerland allowed British flights in and out during WW2, never mind during the Cold War. NATO countries were supplying them with Vampires, Venoms and Hunters and the F-5, and Swiss air force pilots trained at NATO bases from at least  January 1985 onwards, which was very much Cold War period. 

[exdraken]

57 minutes ago, Mountain goat said:

Thank you! Would that episode have taken place in 1988?

 

Jay

Acording to this that happened in 73 

 

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/105/historie.htm

 

https://www.bundesheer.at/truppendienst/ausgaben/artikel.php?id=551

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by exdraken

[Mountain goat]

2 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

I think you are over-thinking this. Switzerland allowed British flights in and out during WW2, never mind during the Cold War. NATO countries were supplying them with Vampires, Venoms and Hunters and the F-5, and Swiss air force pilots trained at NATO bases from at least  January 1985 onwards, which was very much Cold War period. 

Indeed I overthink anything worth thinking about every minute of the day 😁, yet here I must disagree a little: origin of acquisition is a separate issue from transit rights. Also the way I understand it, when the Swiss started training at Decimomannu in 1985, it was very much a commercial deal? In any case Swiss cold war history is very different from Austria as the latter had also been occupied by the Soviet Union as recently as the 1950s, which may have made decisions regarding NATO a little more sensitive I guess? From the links @exdraken has supplied I see a fair number of NATO flights were intercepted by Austrian Saabs (Tunnan, 105, Draken) throughout the CW period, albeit flights "ohne Überfluggenehmigung" or without permission to fly over Austria, implying permission was indeed given at times. I have no idea though; I do think the fast route between Germany to N-Italy via Austria must have been an important strategic asset for NATO!

 

Jay

Edited May 3, 2020 by Mountain goat
Added in the word 'also', see comment below

[exdraken]

As far as I understand, in times of peace and for zrsining, overflight (shortcuts) were ususlly permitted if a flight plan was filed in the first place. Of course as long as Austria was occupied  by Soviets AND allies until 1955, that was a no issue.... afterwards there was no credible defence, but Austria being self governed but neutral. So much that in 1956, the Hungarian crises, Austria could not do much more than protest against aispace intrusions. On the other hand USSR "offered to base" fighterd in order to stop the shortcut flightsin Tyrol... so Austria orderd the Tunnan... as a first credible means of at least tsking a photo... alredy outdated back then if course... 

 

Similar situation in 1968, the Czechoslovakian uprising...

 

All in all that is s long story, Austria never thinking of investing a lot in its armed forces, and whatever they'd done, would have been immediately overrun by either side anyways...

[Rob de Bie]

11 hours ago, Mountain goat said:

Really? That is interesting. Austria didn't have much of an air defence in those days so there's perhaps that. You wouldn't have any sources would you because I really like reading up on these accounts of derring-do...😁.

I think I read most of it in 'Jachtvliegers' by Steve Netto. It's a pity that cannot read Dutch (most likely!), because it's chock-full of these kind of stories. It gave me a rather different view of military aviation. One that stands out for me is a RF-84F pilot that nearly flies himself to death trying to 'get' a photo-target in Germany. In low cloud, he nearly flies into a mountain, and his description of his emotions afterwards is memorable. The Austrian overflights are mentioned only very briefly by the way, hardly any details. I recently went on holiday there, and I can see how beautiful it must have been to fly a Streak low-level through these mountain valleys!

 

Rob

[VolkerR.]

I was told by german airforce personnel that it was common practice in the 1960s and 70s to overfly austrian territory with F-104 north to south at high levels at high speed without any flight plan or preanouncement.

There is no evidence for that, maybe it is just a legend. Flying time over Austria north to south is less than 5 minutes.

The airspace over Austria was (maybe still is?) delegated to german and/or italian ATC so that Munich ATC coordinated directly with MilanACC in the upper airspace. This procedure would have made it easy and free of danger to civilian a/c to fly Nato fighters from Germany to Italy. I dont know if it was commen practice, but I was told it was. From my experience low level crossings were not possible due to danger of accidents with civilian aircraft, especially VFR.

 

Regards

Volker

[Mountain goat]

Great stuff guys, really interesting. @VolkerR. Even if those German accounts were hyperbole, odds are there must be at least some truth in it. @Rob de Bie Cheers - I will purchase Jachtvliegers and yes I will be able to read it thankfully  (part Dutch family and all). 

 

I almost think this specific subject (unannounced NATO flights over Austria) is in itself worthy of a book actually. Munich and Milan air traffic centres bordering each other (I assume in the narrow part of the country) at least explains why there wouldn't have been any Austrian ATC prompts.

 

I get that some people find all this completely unremarkable, but having grown up during the latter days of the Cold War and also having heard firsthand from contemporary Swedes and Yugoslavs how militant they were about their neutrality, all this comes as a surprise to me.

 

In any case, choosing subjects just became a lot easier.

 

Jay

Edit: 'narrow part of the country'- being Tyrol of course. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Mountain goat

[VolkerR.]

2 hours ago, Mountain goat said:

Great stuff guys, really interesting. @VolkerR. Even if those German accounts were hyperbole, odds are there must be at least some truth in it. @Rob de Bie Cheers - I will purchase Jachtvliegers and yes I will be able to read it thankfully  (part Dutch family and all). 

 

I almost think this specific subject (unannounced NATO flights over Austria) is in itself worthy of a book actually. Munich and Milan air traffic centres bordering each other (I assume in the narrow part of the country) at least explains why there wouldn't have been any Austrian ATC prompts.

 

I get why some people find all this completely unremarkable, but having grown up during the latter days of the Cold War and also having heard firsthand from contemporary Swedes and Yugoslavs how militant they were about their neutrality, all this comes as a surprise to me.

 

In any case, choosing subjects just became a lot easier.

 

Jay

The ACCs of Munich and Milan do not border. But some flightlevels were (are?)  delegated from Austrian ACC to Munich or Milan in order to facilitate coordination and handovers. Delegation means the airspace is used by another ACC for some periods of time, the judicial responsibilty remains with the original country. That means that although e.g. FL 290-330 is delegated, the airspace is still Austrian and military traffic need a diplomatic clearance number in the flight plan for a legal crossing. But the Austrians could not clear traffic to the delegated airspace which made it safe for the Italians and the Germans to use it - illegally - for military transit flights.

 

Volker

[exdraken]

Interesting info here... have not heared about that before!

You are sure that those delegations already happend during the cold war? Sounds a lot like modern day efficieny stuff...

[VolkerR.]

23 minutes ago, exdraken said:

Interesting info here... have not heared about that before!

You are sure that those delegations already happend during the cold war? Sounds a lot like modern day efficieny stuff...

I am not sure about anything of that. Its just hearsay.

You need to talk to ATC personnel of Munich, Vienna or Milan ATC. Especially the military subunits or air defence personnel.

[Rob de Bie]

On 5/6/2020 at 1:31 PM, Mountain goat said:

 @Rob de Bie Cheers - I will purchase Jachtvliegers and yes I will be able to read it thankfully  (part Dutch family and all).

Great! I just read here that there were three issues, colour, b/w, colour respectively. Not that it matters too much, the illustrations are generic, not story-specific.

 

https://jachtvliegers.info/?page_id=45

 

The book is written by pilots for pilots - with that I mean that you need to know a bit about military aviation and aircraft. But most modellers will understand it.

 

Another highlight that I remembered: a brand-new RNLAF F-16B starting doing oscillations with max G / min G (or exceeding these limits) after the EPU was switched on. The pilots could not eject due to the forces, but one switched off the EPU after a while, and everything was normal again, except that every warning light was on. GD sent a team immediately, because there had been more of these cases, but all pilots ejected, making the investigation inconclusive. End cause was that the EPU gave voltage spikes, that made the flight computer think it was static on the ground, and that meant horizontal tails trimmed leading edge fully up. I don't remember how the positive Gs were achieved though.

Rob

[Mountain goat]

I thought I should add a follow-up to this subject, as recently (actually last September - time flies), I had the opportunity to speak to a couple of people, one who was active in air traffic control, the other was air force admin but helped plan deployments, both in the 1980s. Both told me Austrian overflights by NATO aircraft were usually not an option, for much the same reason they couldn't overfly other neutral countries either, at least not within a NATO context. According to them, flights to Italy from bases north of the Alps were always planned to go via France. NATO aircraft did visit neutral countries on occasion though.

 

Jay