273 Squadron at Tan Son Nhut 1945-46: what is the color scheme of this Spitfire XIV?

[28ZComeback]

Two questions about SEAC Spitfires—what was the color scheme of 273 Squadron’s Spitfire XIVs at Don Muong and Tan Son Nhut 1945-1946??  I believe it could be ocean grey (or medium grey?) and Dark Green. Or was it Dark Earth and Dark Green? Secondly, was their an operative camera on the 273 XIV, and if so, was it on both sides of the fuselage, or was the starboard side painted over? Thank you in advance. 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pinterest.com/amp/pin/512284526365536984/ 

[Tiger331]

I believe the SEAC/FEAF Spitfire XIVs were all finished in the Grey/Green (rather than Dark Green/Dark Earth) scheme. IT is also my understanding that the FR variant of the XIV was only ever fitted with one F24 camera for oblique low-level photography through the panel on the Port side of the fuselage, similar to that found on the PR.XIX. The standard panel on the starboard side was the access panel to facilitate the handling of the camera.  

 

OK........an afternote........it looks like the camera window could be swopped over since I have now seen images with the aperture on the opposite side of the fuselage....I guess the topic will require further research.

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Certainly Ocean Grey not DSG.  It appears that some early ones, and perhaps some considerably later, were repainted with Dark Earth but this one appears to have too much contrast.  The photo I've found is of RN218 MS.F, in fighter squadrons of the RAF.  The contrast appears somewhat ambiguous, but the serial is white which has been taken to be a sign of a repainted aircraft.  It has an overpainted camera window on the starboard side and clipped wingtips, making it an FR.  I haven't checked the serial, but the pure fighters didn't have this window.

[EwenS]

here is a link to a thread a couple of months ago on the same subject. 132 sqn aircraft at Hong Kong display a mix of apparently DFS aircraft, with the original roundels crudely painted over, and those that appear to have been resprayed with white serials and neat new SEAC roundels. Smiter carries an interesting mix.

 

 

[28ZComeback]

9 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Certainly Ocean Grey not DSG.  It appears that some early ones, and perhaps some considerably later, were repainted with Dark Earth but this one appears to have too much contrast.  The photo I've found is of RN218 MS.F, in fighter squadrons of the RAF.  The contrast appears somewhat ambiguous, but the serial is white which has been taken to be a sign of a repainted aircraft.  It has an overpainted camera window on the starboard side and clipped wingtips, making it an FR.  I haven't checked the serial, but the pure fighters didn't have this window.

 

[Giorgio N]

With the presence of both repainted green/brown and originally finished green/grey camouflaged aircraft in theatre and within the same units, it's impossible to tell which specific camouflage was a an aircraft unless the features indicating this are clearly visible and none is visible in that picture.

RN218 as mentioned by Graham is the best known XIV from 273 Sqn and is most likely in dark green /dark earth. I've seen a low quality picture that is claimed to show a line of 273 Sqn. aircraft and the one in the foreground could be in dark green/ ocean grey. Contrast on your aircraft is more typical of the latter scheme, however interpreting BW pictures is always a minefield. Personally I'd probably go for this scheme, although if I wanted to be safer I'd just go for the well known RN218 and its different scheme if I wanted to build a machine from this unit

[Modelraynz]

Appologies  in ressurecting,

 

but ive been struggling with this question lately for an entry into the vietnam gb...i do, however, come with pics!!

 

Do these provide any more insight?

 

share image online

 

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

It used to be said that those delivered in the Day Fighter scheme retained their black serials.  Those repainted in the official SEAC scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth had white serials.  Nowadays we'd consider a light blue rather than white, for the serials and codes.  In this case the serials do appear different to the white bands, but I'm much less sure about the codes.

[canberra kid]

This is a photo my dad took in Japan 1947

John

[Giorgio N]

1 hour ago, canberra kid said:

This is a photo my dad took in Japan 1947

 

John

should be one of the aircraft carrying the Dark Green / Medium Sea Grey scheme over natural metal undersurfaces

[Modelraynz]

11 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

It used to be said that those delivered in the Day Fighter scheme retained their black serials.  Those repainted in the official SEAC scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth had white serials.  Nowadays we'd consider a light blue rather than white, for the serials and codes.  In this case the serials do appear different to the white bands, but I'm much less sure about the codes.

Cheers for the info! to my eye they look repainted to the SEAC scheme (as much as id prefer the day fighter scheme!))

 

Im wondering if the squadron codes would be a light blue or sky... certainly darker than the fresh serial number on some machines!

 

Great photo canberra_kid! That scheme is one of my favorites! Nice on a low back too!

Edited September 7, 2020 by Modelraynz

[Graham Boak]

Light blue codes were seen on other SEAC Spitfires, including paintings of 607 Sq by war artist Frank Wooton.  I don't know of any examples in Sky.

[stever219]

30 and, I think, 615 Squadrons had “India White”/ pale blue code letters with white serial numbers on their Thudnerblots.

[cherisy]

Ive got the Fujimi FRXIVE " Fighter Recon" kit on the go, The instructions would have me go for the DE/DG/MSG scheme but it has black serials. This is for 28 Sqn at Kuala Lumpur in 1946. Did Fujimi get it wrong?

[Modelraynz]

11 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Light blue codes were seen on other SEAC Spitfires, including paintings of 607 Sq by war artist Frank Wooton.  I don't know of any examples in Sky.

 

10 hours ago, stever219 said:

30 and, I think, 615 Squadrons had “India White”/ pale blue code letters with white serial numbers on their Thudnerblots.

Ahh perfect!

 

ill go with a light blue code and white serial no.

6 hours ago, cherisy said:

Ive got the Fujimi FRXIVE " Fighter Recon" kit on the go, The instructions would have me go for the DE/DG/MSG scheme but it has black serials. This is for 28 Sqn at Kuala Lumpur in 1946. Did Fujimi get it wrong?

 So confusing eh!  As i understand; black serial and fuselage band are indicative of green/grey camo(Which fujimi portray in their "red lion" boxing)

 

For the Saigon spitfires above they seem to show evidence of being repainted - some more tidely than others! Which i take to mean were probably in grey/green scheme changed to SEAC (Haven't heard of repaints the other way!) 

 

Then again Xtradecal show  NH927 in green/grey (which looks very attractive in modified SEAC roundels!) And white serials in india...so who knows!!

[Graham Boak]

"It used to be said" was deliberately written that way.  It has since been doubted, and not just by possibly-mistaken kit/decal producers.  However it makes no sense for serials to be repainted in white whilst the original colour scheme was retained.  Extra work for no purpose.  The Sky fuselage band is a UK Fighter Command marking that has no value in SEAC (and indeed in wartime could readily be confused with Japanese fuselage bands used to identify rank and sub-unit).  The combined set of Sky band and black serial is as clear an indication of an aircraft still in UK colours as you are likely to get.  Step one, if not complete repaint, paint the band out.  Then repaint the serial - could this be a loophole for DFS+ white serial?  Possible but unlikely.  If the aircraft is repainted (OK, not necessarily completely) then the obvious thing to do is keep using the light serial as before.  But there is a loophole for using black. Possible but not obvious why.  So the "rule" is based on sensible grounds.  Nowhere, that has been found, was it specifically instructed that way.

 

One point to bear in mind is that Ocean Grey fades to a very light colour, so the later the date for Mk.XIVs in the Far East then you'd expect a high contrast, more so than for the local scheme.  Another point still requiring clarification is when the SEAC instructions stopped being relevant.  One point of view is the end of the conflict, but the work would continue if at a lower pace - the devil finds work for empty hands - until, as we know from the 11 Sq story, supplies began to run short.  At some stage, and not just by inertia, the Air Ministry instructions would take over from local authorities, and this must have a date.  I suspect it may be after the date of these aircraft in Saigon.

 

Personally, the golden grail would be one of the Mk.VIIIs handed over to the French for their use in Indo-China.  Particularly one of the ex-607 Sq ones!

[Giorgio N]

Over the last couple of years I have started to consider the possibility that certain aircraft retained the Day Fighter Scheme even if they carried white serial numbers...

It all started by looking at a well known picture showing 3 17 Sqn. Spitfire XIV in flight in 1945... closer to the camera is RN152, clearly in DFS (Sky band present and visible evidence of repainting of the old roundels, black serials). The aircraft farthest away is too far to be able to see the serial, although this looks to be black. In any case this aircraft looks to have a much darker camouflage scheme. What throws a spanner in the works is the aircraft in betweenm RN205: this has no visible Sky band and serials in white and the roundels don't show much sign of repainting... however the contrast on the upper surfaces is exactly the same of the first aircraft ! Now I understand the effect of the tropical sun and everything, but here we have two aircraft that left the factory and arrived in India around the same time, so they should have been subject to the same kind of weathering.

NH927 is another aircraft that I'm more and more convinced could have been in DFS: she carried white serial numbers but in the picture I believe there are signs of localised touch-ups using Ocean Grey rather than a full repaint in Dark Earth. Similar signs can be seen in the picture posted above of NH909, where the circle of the standard roundel can be seen on the rear fuselage, something that would not happen in a proper repaint using Dark Earth (of course in the area previously in Ocean Grey).

So yes the white serial numbers were a sign of a repaint but maybe not always of a full repaint of the Ocean Grey areas in Dark Earth. Maybe at some point the local MUs started to use Ocean Grey to touch-up the original DFS to bring the appearance in line with SEAC markings regulations while retaining the original delivery scheme.

Of course this is only based on the observation of pictures, I don't have access to any document that would indicate cuch change so I can't state unequivocally that this is what happened

[Egi vandor]

On 06/09/2020 at 15:22, Modelraynz said:

Appologies  in ressurecting,

but ive been struggling with this question lately for an entry into the vietnam gb...i do, however, come with pics!!

Do these provide any more insight?

 

Thanks for your photos, they are great! I'm going to built 273 Sq MK.VIII and FR.14 and need any info about them.

273 Squadron is very obscure one, so i couldn't find much about it. All i know is that their VIII's surely were in DE/DG, some of their serials may be found here: http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/_prodn list.txt

I also think that after their transferring to Armee de'l Air they retained their colors while delivered later XI's were in Ocean Gray/DG camouflage.

About FR.14's. Most known one, of course, RN218/ MS-F. It looks like DE/DG. But at your photos of SM890/MS-V and NH909/MS-W clearly seen overpainted areas on fuselage. It looks like european-type cocardes were overpainted, but camouflage colors retained. So might they be in OG/DG?

Edited October 9, 2020 by Egi vandor