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stevej60

Airfix 1/48 old tool 109f colour question.

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Posted (edited)

Hi folk's quick question,just at the paint stage of said kit and the scheme will be the Finnish based Luftwaffe machine,what are the RLM colours of the upper

surface camoflage? Aircraft is JG 54 1942. I need a reference to mix my colours.

Cheers Steve.

Edited by stevej60

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Posted (edited)

When you are talking JG54 are you referring these colours?

 

If yes there was this kind of comment related this topic:

Mixing RLM 23 Red and RLM 25 Green would result in a medium brown color. Adding RLM 04 Yellow results in a sandy brown. Using RLM 70 instead of RLM 25 leads to a dark brownish green.

 

And this was clearly non standard RLM colours.

 

Photo is from SA-kuva archive.

 

ldVQ3qi.png

Edited by Vesa Jussila
Added source of foto

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58 minutes ago, Vesa Jussila said:

And this was clearly non standard RLM colours.

Many thank's,it was the base colours I wanted to clarify the mixing was my means of matching the paint I have at hand.

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2 hours ago, stevej60 said:

,what are the RLM colours of the upper

surface camoflage? Aircraft is JG 54 1942. I need a reference to mix my colours.

 

Oh Steve, your poor innocent soul..... it's  :worms:  time! 

 

we don't know.

 

JG54  were mavericks....

 

some examples here

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/color/color_ostfront.htm

 

ii.jg54_color2.jpg

 

 

9.jg54_g2.ge3.jpg

 

Now, the Airfix JG54 markings are 

222378-12155-78-pristine.jpg?impolicy=og

which I think is the plane behind, and has similar  tone to the yellow 3 above.

Messerschmitt-Bf-109F4-7.JG54-White-1-Fr

 

the other side, or perhaps another white 6?   I don't know.  The 6 is different

Messerschmitt-Bf-109F-7.JG54-White-6-bei

see for more

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109F/JG54.html

 

The Airfix box art resembles the white 1/white 6 pic (look at the shape of the 6) 

 

I don't know what you have in RLM stock, the darker colour maybe RLM 70

the lighter green?   Maybe 71 with yellow,  the 109 lair link mentiones resemblance to RLM 80.

 

RLM 63 has been mentioned,  as trails using the pre war colours, as forunners to the late greens and browns..... as seen on some Bf109, and fw190's...

 

Just to make things clearer  :rofl2:

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/JG54.html

 

Focke-Wulf-Fw-190A5-5.JG54-(B5+-)-Stotz-

 

Focke-Wulf-Fw-190A6-1.JG54-White-11-n-Wh

 

 

Focke-Wulf-Fw-190A6-JG54-information-Imm

 

A JG 54 Fw190 was recovered from Russia and restored

 

the colours are supposed to be authetic, though there have been bunfights over this as well....(now there's a surprise)

Airworthy-Focke-Wulf-Fw-190A5-4.JG54-Whi

 

as a final curveball, note the Finns used used a upper scheme of Black and olive green...  I doubt the Luftwaffe use Finnish paint,   but I suspect they were influenced by the Finnish camo,   Finland is basically forest and lakes  (there are 144,000 lakes in Finland IIRC) and it's good camo for that terrian.

 

I'd say the Airfix box art was a good guide as any,  the colour photo of yellow 3 with dog looks similar to the B/W pic of White 1 and 6,  but  pick what you like,  and link back to this if anyone asks.....

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I can fully agree what @Troy Smith writes. I try clarify my previous comment. Logic there is that JG54 possibly was using paints from own depot when mix was done. I know that some historians have said that JG54 was using Russian paints, but I think there is no proof for this. 

 

And related to using FAF colours, maybe influence yes. I never heard that colours would have been handed over to Luftwaffe. Some gifts of war planes were borrowed to Germany during 1940-41 and then those planes were painted in FAF colours then. At least DB-3 was in Rechelin at that time for evaluation. Maybe @Kari Lumppio have more information related this topic.

 

I think we need to extend Troy's signature: Remember ..never trust a profile without a photo.. and when you see photo of JG54 it's something else you think :D 

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Thank's to both of you for contributing I'm sure others will benefit too! I can happily slap my mix of paint on now:wicked:

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Posted (edited)

To further fan the flames, I recently read something describing the colors on the FW190s in those wartime inflight photos as 81, 82, and 83. Go figure...

Edited by Mike
Removing quote from previous post

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16 hours ago, Vesa Jussila said:

And this was clearly non standard RLM colours.

 

14 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

we don't know.

 

JG54  were mavericks....

 

This is either a modeller's dream or nightmare. On the one hand, you can obsess over it and get nowhere because the evidence is conflicting or non-existent. On the other hand, you can paint it however you think just "looks right" and nobody can prove you wrong. I would be tempted to use standard RLM colours that are close enough, or other approximate shades out of the tin, just to save the hassle of mixing. RLM 70/71/79 for those three-colour schemes with the brown and you're looking pretty fine. Your 109F in two colours I would just do RLM 70/71 and leave it at that.

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2 hours ago, Rolls-Royce said:

To further fan the flames, I recently read something describing the colors on the FW190s in those wartime inflight photos as 81, 82, and 83. Go figure...

It has been suggested that JG54 were used to test the effectiveness of these late war colours before they were formally introduced to the Luftwaffe.

Whatever the veracity of this, JG54  were mavericks (Thanks @Troy Smith  :wink: ) but they provided us modellers with endless wonderful colour schemes to speculate upon and copy. 

 

Great choice of colour scheme Steve (and good choice of location too - just down the road from me). Nice little kit too - the Airfix 109F was always reviewed well in terms of shape accuracy. :like:

 

SD

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19 minutes ago, SafetyDad said:

 

Great choice of colour scheme Steve (and good choice of location too - just down the road from me). Nice little kit too - the Airfix 109F was always reviewed well in terms of shape accuracy. :like:

 

SD

Thank's SD and everyone for their thought's right or wrong she's been painted for an entry in the Kit I built as a kid GB now ongoing.

20200503_150732

 

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FYI:  pilot ID, date, location.

 

Your subject, "weiße 6" of the 7./JG 54 was flown by Uffz. Josef Brechtl.  The third photo in Mr. Smith's post (omitting the Airfix box art) shows it in company with Staffelkapitän Oblt. Werner Pichon vom Kalau's "weiße 1" on 24.June 1942 at Utti, Finland (source: Pichon's Flugbuch, where he spells the location as 'Uti') before their return flight to Kotly.

 

It was Brechtl's replacement machine, following his 30.May 1942 forced-landing in Bf 109F-4 WNr.7516, "weiße 6" near Tschudowo (engine damage), shown in Mr. Smith's fourth photo.

 

Fw. Brechtl has been MIA since 6.Jan. 1943, south of Veliki-Luki, lost in Bf 109G-2 WNr.13666 "blaue 2" of the 7./JG 54 (this Staffel used blue numbers during the winter months).

 

Good luck with your build,

GRM

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, stevej60 said:

Thank's SD and everyone for their thought's right or wrong she's been painted for an entry in the Kit I built as a kid GB now ongoing.

20200503_150732

 

@stevej60 I do like your avatar, sir! One of the actors from the "Mons" segment of the program "Our World War", if I'm not mistaken. Great program.

Edited by Rolls-Royce

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Hello

Is not that late Rik Mayall as a Captain Flasheart from Private Plane episode of Black Adder marches forth series? Cheers

Jure

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Perhaps a bit late, but the possible use of RLM 62 and 63, colors that are pretty much the base for those late war 81/82, are also an option.

posted a G-1 from JG.54 a few days ago wearing this scheme (62/63/71 over 76)

In the case of a dark two-tone scheme I would go with 70/71 or 71/63. The use of RLM 80 is Russia seems unlikely to me, can’t see the reason why there would be stock of that shade around.  Just my two cents 😉

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello

Is not that late Rik Mayall as a Captain Flasheart from Private Plane episode of Black Adder marches forth series? Cheers

Jure

I couldn't say. I never watched Black Adder. There is a tall moustached blond actor in "Our World War" portraying an English officer serving in the defense of Mons in 1914. The character wears an overcoat, which was what I first noticed...

Edited by Rolls-Royce

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Just to confirm, it's Rick Mayall in the avatar pic..  

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2 hours ago, Werdna said:

Just to confirm, it's Rick Mayall in the avatar pic..  

OK, thanks! 

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