Indian and Thai Spitfire FR.XIVs

[Tiger331]

 

I know this topic is bordering WWII and is more like 'Post-War' (but not necessarily 'Cold War') but, in essence, I would like to know if anyone can provide reliable advice on the Spitfire FR.XIVs (or indeed Mk.XIVs) that were supplied to the Indian and Thai Air Forces in the 1940s ?. Did they all have clipped wings etc ?. I want to do the new Airfix 1/48 scale kit in one of these schemes but the aftermarket decal sheet references I have all provide conflicting information on the wing set up in particular.

 

Thanks 

[Troy Smith]

8 hours ago, Tiger331 said:

but the aftermarket decal sheet references I have all provide conflicting information on the wing set up in particular.

hahahahahaha

 

yes....bet they don't show the right XVIII wing either......  

 

Less facetiously,  and hopefully more helpfully,  i did collate this a while back

 

 

I've not seen photos of Thai aircraft in serivice myself. There is one in the link, but look pre delivery to me.

 

Finally,   I'd ask  for specifics of what aircraft, and what decal sheet  if you really want to pin down the details, and see if there is a photo to work from. 

 

HTH

[spitfire]

Here is some photos from the RTAF Museum, they are old photos from when I visited the museum in 2001.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[Tiger331]

10 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

hahahahahaha

 

yes....bet they don't show the right XVIII wing either......  

 

Less facetiously,  and hopefully more helpfully,  i did collate this a while back

 

 

I've not seen photos of Thai aircraft in serivice myself. There is one in the link, but look pre delivery to me.

 

Finally,   I'd ask  for specifics of what aircraft, and what decal sheet  if you really want to pin down the details, and see if there is a photo to work from. 

 

HTH

Troy,

 

I'm quite keen to do the Indian Air Force NH848 from the old Academy re-issue of their Spitfire FR Mk.XIVe (AC12211 Special Edition) in the overall silver (bare metal ?) colour scheme. I'm a bit cautious about the accuracy of the 'Chakra' roundels on the decal sheet....I have other versions of the Chakra from other sheets (Model Alliance, for example) and see there is quite a bit of debate about the design and colours used as outlined in the topic you kindly forwarded. It looks like clipped wings is the way forward though.

 

Thanks again

 

Mark   

 

Troy/Dennis,

 

Thanks for your collective input.......Looks like I may be doing one of each at this rate !

[bobmig]

Here's a link to a good Indian Air Force site. This takes you to the Spitfire page, but from there you can browse and explore the history and various other aircraft pages: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/aircraft/past/919-spitfire.html#Mk XIV

[Troy Smith]

On 03/05/2020 at 09:52, Tiger331 said:

 

I'm quite keen to do the Indian Air Force NH848

since he was on on here today,  I'm going to put an @Linescriber  here, as if someone knows, it will be him.  

 

On 03/05/2020 at 09:52, Tiger331 said:

I'm a bit cautious about the accuracy of the 'Chakra' roundels on the decal sheet....I have other versions of the Chakra from other sheets (Model Alliance, for example) and see there is quite a bit of debate about the design and colours used as outlined in the topic

the Indian applied ones were dark blue on a pale yellow disc.  That is the what was discovered in the research for Spitfire In The Sun book, the hsitrory of the Spitfire in the Indian Air Force.

[Linescriber]

Thanx Troy, So, Tiger 331. Almost all (99%) of IAF Spitfire F/FR Mk XIVs were clipped winged low back examples all, being handed down from RAF Sqns converting to the XVIII or P-47.  NH 848 was a low back FR Mk XVIIIe which was re serialed as HS639 and served withe last IAF Sqn, No 14 "Fighting Bulls" till Sep 1957. No evidence exists to show hat any of the 22 odd Mk XIVs left after independence carried the Chakra though. Also, all Mk XVIII s were full winged. If you don have access to my book, here's a relevant extract;

 

One problem which did arise in service was localised skin wrinkling on the wings and fuselage at load attachment points; although Supermarine advised that the Mk XIVs had not been seriously weakened, nor were they on the point of failure, the RAF nevertheless issued instructions in early 1945 that all F and FR Mk XIVs were to be retrospectively fitted with clipped wings. Thus clipped wing Spitfire XIVs began to arrive in the South-East Asian Theatre in June 1945 (No. 11 Squadron RAF), too late to operate against the Japanese.  The aircraft equipped with cameras were designated FR XIV and were built with both ‘C’ (Universal) and ‘E’ type wings. One restriction placed upon Mk XIVs equipped with the extra fuel tank in the rear fuselage was that they were not supposed to fly above 15,000ft (4,572m) with the tank full because of centre of gravity concerns. Late production F XIVs were cleared in January 1945 to operate in the fighter-bomber role carrying 250lb (113 kg) or 500lb (227kg) bombs, and a 30 or 90 Imp gal (136 or 409 liter) overload tank. Alternatively a J-type winch for towing targets could be carried.

In total, 957 Mk XIVs were built, over 430 of which were FR Mk XIVs. Mk XIVs were exported to Belgium, Indian and Thailand. A total of 134 F/FR XIV were purchased in 1947 for the Force Aerienne Belge/ Belgische Luchtmacht (Royal Belgium Air Force), which remained in front-line service until December 1952 and were finally retired in 1954.

Nos 1, 4, 6, 7, and 9 Squadrons of the Royal Indian Air Force flew approx 175 Spitfire Mk XIVs still with RAF serials. The type was retired by the re-titled Indian Air Force in the early 1950s. In 1950 a total of 30 reconditioned F/FR XIVs were purchased for the Royal Thai Air Force from RAF stocks in the Far East. They were used until 1955 before being withdrawn from service.

 

Here's the RIAF AFO on the Chakra, note the last line.

 

 

                                                                                                                                            A.F.O. (I) Tech 1/48

                                                                                                                                          AIR FORCE ORDERS

                                                          AIR VICE-MARSHAL S. MUKERJEE, O.B.E., CHIEF OF THE AIR STAFF AND AIR VICE-MARSHAL COMMANDING, ROYAL INDIAN AIR FORCE.

No. 1 Air Headquarters

New Delhi, the 30th April 1948

 

 

                                                               1. National Markings for Aircraft Aircraft Indication Markings:-

 

As specified in A.F.O. (I) 357/43 are cancelled and the superseded the new markings detailed below.

The National Markings for R.I.A.F. Aircraft are to be shown in roundels consisting of ‘Asoka Chakras’ on wings and the fuselage and tricolor flashes on the fin.

2.    Asoka Chakra is to be made in navy blue color and drawn from a dimension in relation to hub diameter:-

Diameter of outer circle of the Chakra will be eight times the diameter of the hub. Width of the rim will be half the diameter of the hub. The hub and the rim will be connected by twenty-four spokes. The width of the spokes at the rim-end and the hub-end to be one eighteenth of the diameter of the hub. At one third of the length of the spokes, from the hub-end, the width of the spokes will be three times the width of the spokes at the ends. Thus the spokes will be uniformly reducing in width from the maximum width at one third the length to both the ends. On the inner sides of the distance and between the spokes, stiffeners are shown which are to be drawn of semicircular areas of diameter equal to half the distance between the spokes in that the straight side of the semicircular area to coincide the inner sides of the rim.

3. The tricolour flash will consist of a rectangular area divided into to vertical rectangles in different colours and is to be constructed as:-

The width (taken as base) is to be divided into three parts such that middle part is one fourth of the total width and the outer two parts of equal length i.e., the outer pairs are each one and a half times the length and middle part. Vertical lines are to be drawn from the dividing points and width such that entire area is divided into three vertical rectangular areas. The leading rectangle is to be coloured in Saffron, the middle in white and the rear in dark green.

Height of the flash to be 24 inches, which may be lesser if the fin area does not allow this.

4(i) Chakras are to be painted on the upper and the lower sides of the wings in case of monoplane aircraft.

(ii) In case of biplane aircraft the Chakras are to be painted on the upper side of upper wings and lower side of lower wings.

(iii) Chakras to be painted on both sides of the fuselage at appropriate place just behind the trailing edge of the wings such that sufficient place is left available to write aircraft Code letters and paint the International Ambulance Red Cross if required in case of Ambulance aircraft.

(iv) Flash to be painted on the fin in vertical direction such that the Saffron colour is towards the leading side and green on the trailing side aircraft.

Note:- In Dakota Aircraft Chakras to be painted directly above the junction of Tail Unit and Fuselage, and the code letters painted on top of the flash on the fin.

5.       Dimension of National Markings. - The sizes of Chakras and the flashes to shown in the following table. The sizes for single seater fighter are those shown for medium sized Aircraft and the large size for transport and bomber Aircraft. The sizes may be selected according to the space available on the fin, fuselage and the wings.

 

 

1. PAINTS:-

Roundels:-

i. For metal surface.

Stores Reference 33B/813, colour identification.

Blue specification No. D.T.D. 752.

ii.For Fabric surfaces.

Stores Reference 33B/392 colour identification.

Blue specification No. D.T.D. 83A.

Note:- Where the roundel is not distinctly visible on camouflage paint a yellow base is to be given from colour identification on yellow stores ref. 33B/179. The circular yellow base should be of 3 inches bigger diameter than the diameter of Chakras.

A Pic of the IAF museum's Mk XIV

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

It is slightly curious that the F.Mk.XIVs were to have clipped wings as they were best employed in the high altitude role.  Problems with the wing root were common throughout the Spitfire's life, and a series of modifications evolved.  The final appearance of the problem was when dive-bombing in Western Europe (not a function of the F Mk.XIV units) and this is why the clipped wings were standardised for low-level work.  My understanding is that all FR Mk.XIVs had clipped wings, and for that matter all were built with the E wing, but of course the modification was not extreme and could readily be adopted on earlier airframes, as it was on F Mk.IXs.

 

My second Frog Mk.XIV is currently waiting in its third unfinished incarnation, this time as an Indian example using a commercial decal set.  I can only hope that it isn't a Mk.XVIII and if so I haven't clipped the wings.... I daren't think about the Chakra.

[EwenS]

There were 3 squadrons in the Far East fully equipped with Mk.XIV by VJ Day, 132, 17 and 11 in that order. The first two received high back F variants with 11 receiving low back FR versions. All were earmarked to fly ashore from escort carriers during Op Zipper, the invasion of Malaya, for which they practiced during July.

 

All retained the full span wings. Why? During trials in July 1945 it was found that clipping the wings extended the take off distance by 100 feet. Not a good idea if you were taking off from a short decked, relatively low speed aircraft carrier. Later some of the aircraft seem to have had the wing tips removed. There are photos around, some published in the old Profile publication, of 11 squadron FR aircraft taking off from HMS Trumpeter in Sept 1945 with those full span wings.

[Graham Boak]

Interesting to couple this with the thread mentioning clipped wing Seafires at Salerno.  And those didn't have Griffons to drag them airborne.

[gingerbob]

They also had considerably less weight to drag around.

[Graham Boak]

But the Seafires had the same armament (more or less), plus an arrester hook, catapult gear, and strengthening.  Most of any additional weight on a Mk.XIV from not from the airframe but the engine, which is overall a good thing.

[EwenS]

Remember as well that the Griffon engine generated much more torque than the Merlin, especially with the big 5 blade prop on the Mk.XIV, so the throttle couldn’t be opened up too quickly or the aircraft would want to steer to starboard while rolling in the same direction. Not good on a carrier with the island in the way. Care certainly had to be taken operating Griffon engined Seafires until contra-props were fitted.

[Graham Boak]

Given that the Merlin was the only engine operating the other way, this will probably have been true for other types as well, such as the Corsair.  It make me wonder why the island was on that side anyway.  The Japanese did experiment with one pair of carriers having islands on opposite sides, supposedly in the interest of closer operation whilst avoiding flight patterns.  I gather the idea didn't find favour.

 

The root (actually wing root) reason for gong to contraprops was that the aircraft was becoming impossible to trim for both low speed approaches and high speed dives.  Hence the additional weight and complexity of the contraprop was considered necessary for carrier operations whereas their land-based equivalents managed without to the end.  Smaller prop diameter helped on carriers too.

[EwenS]

Many explanations exist about the position of carrier islands. Most frequently the explanation is given that pilots preferred to turn left on take-off or if overshooting (why?) so having the island to starboard removed an obstacle. But in the early days all sorts of things were tried, some only in the wind tunnel. Flush decks (no island so no disturbed airflow to affect light WW1 generation aircraft. Even post WW2 with larger aircraft), 2 islands (port and starboard to provide a shelter for aircraft awaiting take off - more problems on landing). 

 

The theory of the Japanese post side islands was that their carriers were intended to operate in pairs. Akagi and Kaga port and starboard respectively after their 1930s rebuild and the same for Hiryu & Soryu. So aircraft landing & taking off would turn in opposite directions as you note. But it was dropped for the next pair Shokaku & Zuikaku laid down only 6 months after Hiryu and before the reconstructed Akagi with island was ever completed. So how much truth there is in that theory has to be questioned.

 

But the debate went on postwar with the US supercarriers but this time it was fore or aft vis a vis the starboard side elevators. Compare Forrestal class with all subsequent carriers. Apparently navigators like the island more forward (easier to see over the bow) but aviators like it aft (elevators with easier access to catapults and easier to control aircraft). Of course the Queen Elizabeth class have the best of both worlds. Two islands! Navigation from the forward island and air control from the aft island. Bit more to it than that of course.

 

It is fascinating how carriers have developed alongside the aircraft that were designed to operate from them over time, and how the one affects the other.

[Graham Boak]

Something to do with left-hand vs right-hand circuits, perhaps? 

 

Rotary engined aircraft would turn more readily in one direction than the other, most famously the Camel, but I thought it was a reluctance to turn left?

 

Does the QE have the best of both worlds or the worst?  Or both?  Perhaps just the ugliest?  As you say, there's more to it.