Underwing pylons on E.E. Lightning F.6?

[Doc72]

I am fascinated, too, by this lateral pylon on the belly tank of XN275. This looks like a logical idea. I wonder why this wasn't adopted on the F.53. Looks easier than putting a rocket launcher on top of the wing.

But getting back to the mysterious F.6 pylons: as you said, using the access panels for fixing fake pylons sounds reasonable.

[SAT69]

I took the liberty of emailing John Watson, Chief of Engineering of The Lightning Association and asked if he could shed some light on the aforementioned F.6 aircraft. Will share what I find out when (if?) I hear from him. 

[Duncan B]

10 hours ago, John B (Sc) said:

'sloegin' - that picture of XN725 is fascinating, and may give us  a clue.  It appears to have a dummy (I presume) weapon attached to a short pylon on the side of the ventral tank. Surely a temporary lash up to determine what would be needed structurally and in terms of equipment  services reshuffle etc.  I think as 'rossm' says use of the access panels to hang temporary pylons for show seems reasonable.  No structural impact likely in doing that.

 

John B

Note also that BAC got Trumpeter in to redesign the ventral tank.

 

Duncan B

[junglierating]

Hmm this may have been said but could it have been that f.mk6 were fitted with export wings for the sales pitch and then retro fitted back to original standard. Chances are the pylons weren't even wired up unless they were going to fly with underwing stores fitted ....then they would have to be if only for 'clear wing purposes....(jettision)...Selwyn?

[tweeky]

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Or that XS903 and XS934 had wings replaced at some time for this display

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Hmm this may have been said but could it have been that f.mk6 were fitted with export wings for the sales pitch and then retro fitted back to original standard

Wing change on a Lightning would be a massive job both engines, Interpipes and Reheat pipe would need to come out.  The wings are joined at the centre section, which it "wet" and would need resealing on the rebuild (this job was a real pain and could take up to a weeks to fix in service. Also the cockpit would need to be removed as the wings slide out forward as a pair.  

 

Quote

XP697 was one of the late version development aircraft, converted from an F.3

 

  This was BAE systems own jet so it might the underwing pylon mod carried out. 

 

5 years at Binbrook on a Sqn (XS903 was AM whjilst I was there) never noticed and under wing differenced to any other F Mk 6 and there was no ground weapons controls in the cockpit.

 

The overwing's were fitted during my time on type and the jettison system wasn't active they didn't want to risk banging tanks off, didn't know what damage if any would be done to the main spa.    

Edited May 5, 2020 by tweeky

[Selwyn]

1 hour ago, junglierating said:

Hmm this may have been said but could it have been that f.mk6 were fitted with export wings for the sales pitch and then retro fitted back to original standard. Chances are the pylons weren't even wired up unless they were going to fly with underwing stores fitted ....then they would have to be if only for 'clear wing purposes....(jettision)...Selwyn?

If you had wiring in the wing it would have been the full set, Live release and jettison. It would have been pointless otherwise. Remember there was the French JL100 overwing Rocket pod/Fuel tank combo as used on Mirage as a proposed overwing fit, you would need the Live release for the rockets.

 

Selwyn

[SAT69]

In line with this conversation, I once read (can't find the source now) an F.2A was seen at an airshow with 6 cannon mounted; four in the nose and two in the forward section of the belly mounted tank, as seen on the F.6 belly tank. I've looked for photos and looked again several times among my references but can't find it. The source didn't indicate what airshow, what serial number or what date. This was at the time when Germany based F.2As were to have been used in the ground attack mode, to strafe tanks, I presume.

[tweeky]

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Germany based F.2As were to have been used in the ground attack mode, to strafe tanks, I presume.

Nope no ground attack just shoot as many Migs as you can then get back for more bullets.

 

When bases in Gatow we made a pair of sidewinders out of a broom handle and bits of ali sheet. other than the near international incident is caused does that mean the chippy is now sidewinder capable?

 

I've never seen a F2a with a gun ventral.

Edited May 7, 2020 by tweeky

[canberra kid]

I've been rummaging through my shoebox of LIghtning bits, and I've not found anything, but I've also thrown the question out so see what turns up? If it's anything to go by the the wing pylon mod's to the Canberra B.2's for export or the TT.18 basically they drilled a hole through the wing and did local skin strengthening.

John  

[canberra kid]

I've just got this from an ex BAe chap.

Pylon fit for export versions only, the wing had an extra rib in to form the hard point. The pylon was attached by one main spigot fastened by removing a round cover plate on the upper wing surface. At the forward point of the pylon a square locating stud aligned the pylon. The was also an electrical connection between these two points and the contact area on the wing protected with a possibly stainless scuff plate. Not sure about the design and production

John

[sloegin57]

3 hours ago, canberra kid said:

I've just got this from an ex BAe chap.

Pylon fit for export versions only, the wing had an extra rib in to form the hard point. The pylon was attached by one main spigot fastened by removing a round cover plate on the upper wing surface. At the forward point of the pylon a square locating stud aligned the pylon. The was also an electrical connection between these two points and the contact area on the wing protected with a possibly stainless scuff plate. Not sure about the design and production

John

Thanks John, that sounds like LER (Leading Edge Rib) 12A and 13A coming off Spar 1.  I recall that we had some strengthening mods to do on them.  It might be worth your (and ours !) while to contact the Training School at Warton and see if they have any documentation from those days. There may even be a grizzled old Lightning Instructor still there just sitting on his pension.  They had parts of a Lightning F.2A in the Saudi Tech Hangar as well which we could play with.  I think the serial was XN734.

 

I'll dig out a drawing of the export mainplane.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis 

[canberra kid]

Thanks Dennis, a bit more info

 

John

[sloegin57]

Export Mainplane ribs and spars (no skin cutouts) :-

Description in Training Manual (may have to be read more than once !)

 

Dennis

 

[canberra kid]

[SAT69]

On 5/6/2020 at 12:52 PM, tweeky said:

Nope no ground attack just shoot as many Migs as you can then get back for more bullets.

 

When bases in Gatow we made a pair of sidewinders out of a broom handle and bits of ali sheet. other than the near international incident is caused does that mean the chippy is now sidewinder capable?

 

I've never seen a F2a with a gun ventral.

Assuming the targets were MiGs rather than on the ground, why would the aircraft be armed with cannon only when it was equipped to carry IR missiles? The F.2A I was talking about was seen at an airshow and as far as I know, that was the only time an F.2A was seen with 6 cannon mounted. A "just for show" kind of thing? I honestly don't know, but the configuration is interesting.

[SAT69]

Just received this:

 

Dear Earl,

Thankyou for your enquiry. We are currently closed to the public but I have taken a picture of the outer wing on Lightning XS903. All I can say at the moment is there are 2 access panels where a pylon could potentially be mounted. When we are back to normal I will attempt to remove the panels to see if there is a hardpoint within the wing tip where a pylon could potentially be mounted.

Kind regards

Gary Hancock

Heritage Manager

Yorkshire Air Museum

[Dave Fleming]

On 5/4/2020 at 2:19 PM, sloegin57 said:

Y

 

The only thing that puzzles me about Flight's misunderstanding is that they seem to have missed the obvious connection and that is in the Mark Number for the export single seater.  The first figure '5' refers to the fact that it is an export aircraft and the second figure refers to the fact that it was derived from the Mk3..  That was standard practice throughout the British aircraft Industry in those days. 

 

  

 

We seem to have wandered off the OP's question a touch.  How did BAC manage to hang underwing weapons on two RAF F.6 Lightnings when there were no pickup points for them. ?

 

I've no idea  

 

HTH

 

Dennis

 

  

 

You can add the fact that the small number of exported F2s were mk 52s and T4s were mk 54s

 

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Dave Fleming

[Dave Fleming]

On 5/6/2020 at 4:17 PM, SAT69 said:

In line with this conversation, I once read (can't find the source now) an F.2A was seen at an airshow with 6 cannon mounted; four in the nose and two in the forward section of the belly mounted tank, as seen on the F.6 belly tank. I've looked for photos and looked again several times among my references but can't find it. The source didn't indicate what airshow, what serial number or what date. This was at the time when Germany based F.2As were to have been used in the ground attack mode, to strafe tanks, I presume.

 

XN782 at Luftfahrtausstellung Museum, Hermeskeil in Germany is fitted with the F6 gun forward belly tank (although not the lower nose guns)

 

I have seen photos of four gun F2As but never a 6 shooter!

[SAT69]

40 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

XN782 at Luftfahrtausstellung Museum, Hermeskeil in Germany is fitted with the F6 gun forward belly tank (although not the lower nose guns)

 

I have seen photos of four gun F2As but never a 6 shooter!

I have to wonder if the provision was built into the F.2A for the gun equipped belly tank but it wasn't, typically, used operationally.

[Selwyn]

10 hours ago, SAT69 said:

Assuming the targets were MiGs rather than on the ground, why would the aircraft be armed with cannon only when it was equipped to carry IR missiles? The F.2A I was talking about was seen at an airshow and as far as I know, that was the only time an F.2A was seen with 6 cannon mounted. A "just for show" kind of thing? I honestly don't know, but the configuration is interesting.

The config of 6 cannons was just that fiction just for the airshow.

four cannons was achievable but without missiles, the bottom cannon pack replaced the missile pack .IIRC.

 

Selwyn

[tweeky]

3 hours ago, Selwyn said:

The config of 6 cannons was just that fiction just for the airshow.

four cannons was achievable but without missiles, the bottom cannon pack replaced the missile pack .IIRC.

 

Selwyn

Didn't the 2A have upper and lower guns in the fuselage?

The ventral gun pack was rear of the missile pack. we removed the missiles when on APC in Cyprus the missiles disturbed the airflow around the cannon ports

 

Quote

why would the aircraft be armed with cannon only when it was equipped to carry IR missiles? The F.2A

The standard fit for the F2a was two Firestreaks and 2 or 4 canons.  They would be no provision for any ground attack ranging, let alone pilot training. Also the F6's fully armed ammo tank was something like 240/250 rounds per side something like 5-6 seconds worth cant get many tanks with that

[Hook]

5 hours ago, tweeky said:

The standard fit for the F2a was two Firestreaks and 2 or 4 canons. 

Only two cannon when Firestreaks were carried, the avionics pack required for the missiles replaced the lower pair.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Selwyn]

5 hours ago, tweeky said:

Didn't the 2A have upper and lower guns in the fuselage?

The ventral gun pack was rear of the missile pack. we removed the missiles when on APC in Cyprus the missiles disturbed the airflow around the cannon ports

 

The standard fit for the F2a was two Firestreaks and 2 or 4 canons.  They would be no provision for any ground attack ranging, let alone pilot training. Also the F6's fully armed ammo tank was something like 240/250 rounds per side something like 5-6 seconds worth cant get many tanks with that

The F6 tank was not compatible with the F2A. This tank design was produced to replace the two upper cannons that were deleted on the F6. It could be physically fitted to an F2A as was shown in pictures as the mounting points were the same, but there was no installed wiring for tank gun operation. You could fit the gunless FA2 tank to a F6, The F6 now on display at BAe Warton flew in this config as it had the maximum fuel carried  of all lightning tanks which was useful during flight tests and it still has the F2A tank fitted.

 

Selwyn

[tweeky]

48 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

The F6 tank was not compatible with the F2A. This tank design was produced to replace the two upper cannons that were deleted on the F6. It could be physically fitted to an F2A as was shown in pictures as the mounting points were the same, but there was no installed wiring for tank gun operation. You could fit the gunless FA2 tank to a F6, The F6 now on display at BAe Warton flew in this config as it had the maximum fuel carried  of all lightning tanks which was useful during flight tests and it still has the F2A tank fitted.

 

Selwyn

LTF Used to have one F6 (there only F6) with a fuel ventral fitted, this jet was used as a target for the pilots going through the conversion/training course. The Fuel ventral and the gun tank were different shapes too. not many of the aircraft that went to private collections went with the guntank.  The one at Warton had a guntank fitted when she was at Binbrook. Wartons jet is in South Africa.  Max fuel is with Overwings and Fuel ventral...some thing I've never seen used.

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by tweeky
typo#

[Selwyn]

4 minutes ago, tweeky said:

LTF Used to have one F6 (there only F6) with a fuel ventral fitted, this jet was used as a target for the pilots going through the conversion/training course. The Fuel ventral and the gun tank were different shapes too. not many of the aircraft that went to private collections went with the guntank.  The one at Warton had a guntank fitted when she was at Binbrook. Wartons jet is in South Africa.  Max fule is with Overwings and Fuel ventral...some thing I've never seen used.

 

Yes I know.

 But  my point was The F6 gun tank was not compatible with the F2A.  The Warton flight test F6 used theF2A gunless tank which carried more fuel than the gun type F6 tank. 

 

Selwyn