French post-war aircraft colour standards

[Shorty84]

Hi all,

 

with my daylong internet search leading to a brick wall I hope the Britmodeller hive can shed some light into this topic.

 

I’m looking for French aircraft colour standards (interior/exterior) of the immediate post-war period and possible paint equivalents (Gunze/MRP/Tamiya), mainly for training/utility types like the SIPA S.10/11/111/12/121, Nord 1000/1001/1002 and MH.1521 Broussard.

 

Case in point, I have a Planet Models Arado Ar 396 I want to convert into a SIPA S.111 but have absolutely no idea what colours I should paint it. Especially the exterior looks either dark brown or green, depending on the photos.  

 

Furthermore, the Ardpol MH.1521 kit (1/48) contains only veeery generic colour information which are of no help.

 

French colours standards seem to be an extremely elusive topic so I hope someone can provide me some guidance.

 

 

Thanks!

 

Cheers

Markus

[Graham Boak]

Good luck.  The SIPA colour has long interested me too, but I came to the conclusion that in this period almost everything was painted a common khaki, which can appear as either brown or green depending upon lighting, colour film, and individual perception.  It seems to have been a distinctly muddy colour - and yes it was on the Ju.88s and 188s that look so beautiful in their profile of Sea Blue Gloss... or should it have been (but wasn't) Extra Dark Sea Grey?

[Grizzly]

Colour coat have a new range of French colours in their range.

[Graham Boak]

I think the only new colours are the Great War ones.  They do have the prewar and wartime Kaki, how close this may have been to the postwar colour I can't say.

[Shorty84]

Thanks for your replies guys. As I thought there seems to be no clear conclusion on this topic. I guess the information is still buried in some archive, waiting to be unearthed.

 

I will revert to the "paint what you see" approach. After checking various kit manufacturers recommendations for "Khaki" (if they specify them) I came to the conclusion that most recommend a muddy brown which seems to be too light. No idea if the pre-war Khaki is the same colour, although it would make sense to use up paints which for sure where still supply at that time.

 

Anyway, as the colour appears as either brown or green I decided to use a dark Olive Drab which is a good middle ground in my opinion.

The interior of the Amiot AAC.1 (Frech-built Ju 52) in Munich is a dark grey and the cockpit of the SIPA S.11 looks dark (grey) too so I will use RLM66 for ex-german types.

 

Thanks again, hopefully some enterprising researcher will feel the urge to give us some good publications on french colours in the future.

 

Cheers

Markus

[RidgeRunner]

On the uppers Vert Force. See Colourcoats. https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/collections/armee-de-lair. 

 

Martin

 

wez @Wez, your thoughts? 

 

[Wez]

32 minutes ago, RidgeRunner said:

On the uppers Vert Force. See Colourcoats. https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/collections/armee-de-lair. 

 

Martin

 

wez @Wez, your thoughts? 

 

Tricky one that, interpreting period colour photos is almost a dark an art as trying to interpret colours from black and white photos.

 

In Crosnier's L'Armée de l'Air en Afrique du Nord 1940-1967 Vol.2 there are a few colour photos of the SIPA.111A in service with EALA 1/71, 2/71 and 3/71 in North Africa, to my eye, they vary between the swatch for Vert Moyen AFC01 and Vert AFC08, they don't look as dark as Vert Fonce AFC02 in the Colourcoats series but that's to my eye.

 

Given the SIPA111A were in service in the mid fifties, their likely to have been painted in a Celomar shade for a dark green.  Not much help I know but it does highlight the difficulty of interpreting the colours.

[Shorty84]

Tricky indeed. Even with colour photographs available the paint never looks the same (except if we consider the possibility that some machines were painted in different colours).

 

This one looks like a good match for ACF04: http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/other/sipa111/sipa111-9.jpg

Here it looks more like ACF08: https://img.over-blog.com/600x426/1/95/08/26/Sipa-11-12-121-122/SIPA_111A_2_.jpg

 

Most profiles seem to agree that it was a green too so I may use some olive drab mixed with green to get the desired shade.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Shorty84

[Graham Boak]

Excellent pictures which I hadn't seen - thank you.  The only qualification I'd make is that the colour used in the "Immediate post-war" period (as requested) may differ.  There were three different versions of the SIPA and they varied in subtle ways.  IIRC the first looked most like the Ar 396 whereas the later ones had a different canopy.  But I never found a really good account of the differences.  Presumably Fanatique did a proper history, but not in the copies I ever saw.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Graham Boak

[RidgeRunner]

The difference between the s.10/11 and the S.12 was that the latter was all metal rather than partial doped metal frame of the earlier models. The s.11and 12 were eventually armed too. 

 

http://all-aero.com/index.php/contactus/10178-sipa-s10--s11--s12--s111--s121

 

I have a couple planned in the near future. One is RS (S.10) and the other is a resin kit from omega (S.121).

 

M

 

 

[RidgeRunner]

3 hours ago, Wez said:

In Crosnier's L'Armée de l'Air en Afrique du Nord 1940-1967 Vol.2 there are a few colour photos of the SIPA.111A in service with EALA 1/71, 2/71 and 3/71 in North Africa, to my eye, they vary between the swatch for Vert Moyen AFC01 and Vert AFC08, they don't look as dark as Vert Fonce AFC02 in the Colourcoats series but that's to my eye.

 

I suspect you are right, Wez. Vert Force does seem a bit dark!

 

Martin

Edited April 30, 2020 by RidgeRunner

[Shorty84]

Hi Graham,

 

although not an expert I determined the following differences between the various versions of the SIPA:

• S.10: Mixed construction, basically similar to the Ar 396 except for the redesigned landing gear (the wheels rotate 90° to lay flush into the wings), the missing bump on the upper engine cowl and a 3 blade prop.
• S.11/111: Mixed construction, the canopy was redesigned into a sliding design compared to the earlier side opening ones. The tail surfaces feature a corrugated skin.
• S.12/121: All-metal construction, more powerful engine. Otherwise similar to the S.11/111

If you don't know it already you may find this link interesting: http://avions-de-la-guerre-d-algerie.over-blog.com/article-20607309.html

 

Cheers

Markus

Edited May 3, 2020 by Shorty84
Version information updated.

[RidgeRunner]

Thanks for the great link, Markus

Edited April 30, 2020 by RidgeRunner

[ivand]

12 hours ago, RidgeRunner said:

Vert Force

Just to be clear: that would be "vert foncé" (with an accent aigu), dark green, as opposed to vert clair (light green) and vert moyen (middle/medium green). 🙂

[RidgeRunner]

Yes, my error. However, I am now trying to check this.