iainpeden Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 As a volunteer at Duxford in H4 I get asked quite a few questions and can actually answer some of them -or at least suggest possibilities. This one stemmed from a query we got from a 10 year old last November. His question was "Why has that a/c got 4 wing guns when the Bf109 only ever had 2?" The Bf109 displayed in H4 is an E-3 with an interesting history. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/70000185 All the information I can find states the armament as 2 MG17s above the engine and 1 MGFF cannon in each wing. However the a/c at Duxford has 2 "gun" holes in each wing - they can be seen in the link above with the inner one being taped over (it's the same on the starboard wing.) Last December, on a very cold, grey, quiet day my co-volunteer and I had a really good at the a/c and had the chance to have a good look underneath. The outer holes are fairly obviously for guns, with panels on the upper wing matching up. However the inner holes line up with the outer part of the undercarriage bay and therefore leave no room for guns being fitted. I have not found any other pictures with these holes and they don't appear with any schematics I can find, including the Duxford library. Anybody have an idea what the holes are for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) Out of the mouths of babes, infants, and juniors (or should I say Year 6's?) Just to clear the air, some wings on E-3s were build for E-1s, so intended for machine guns not cannon, and this was mounted in a different wing bay. I thought that this was the adjacent bay inboard from the cannon, and is seen as capped. However that doesn't seem inboard enough for your example. Edited April 28, 2020 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak75 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Hi I don’t have my references with me but I recall from deep recesses of my mind that ME 109 E had wing mounted gun cameras next to cannons, hence second port in each wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted April 28, 2020 Author Share Posted April 28, 2020 Thanks both - what has really caused us to scratch our heads is the proximity to the wheel bay - I'm not even sure that there's room for a camera although it was one of our theories. I'll just have to wait for another cold, quiet December, turn off the security cameras and get the tape measure out. Given it was taken over to the US for tests I wonder if the holes were added there. I have found these, an E-4 and an E-3 - both with the "camera" window but no wing guns. http://plane-crazy.k-hosting.co.uk/Aircraft/WW2-Planes/Me109/messerschmitt_bf_109.htm I'm going back to Phantoms! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak75 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Iain Both replies maybe correct, see discussion here https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/bf-109-gun-camera.28120/ Will look look at my refs tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 The Deutches Museum example shows the plug (as does another) and was initially built as an E-1. Of course the space could well have been used as for a gun camera, but two seems very unlikely. If this is in the same position as the holes in your example I'd say the matter was solved - but if not, oh very curious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak75 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 (edited) Hi So it seems my mind was just a little too hazy ... it was apparently rare for Me-109E to have cine film gun cameras, these were more prevalent in with the FW-190. As suggested by Graham, it is likely that the E-3 had E-1 wings when the armament was upgraded from MG to 20mm cannon. The cannon was installed slightly outboard of the original MG position, leaving an open port which was sometimes plugged or covered or just left. From 5534 Signal ME 109E walkaround: https://i.postimg.cc/ydSf4vy9/ME-109E.jpg https://postimg.cc/jwt6y69d Cheers Edited April 30, 2020 by Pak75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted April 30, 2020 Author Share Posted April 30, 2020 Pak75 - thanks for the photo - the "patch" inboard of the cannon certainly looks to be in the same position as the Duxford example. Interesting because, from looking not measuring, there doesn't appear to be room for a gun block unless it protruded into the wheel well slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 On the E1 the mg was fitted close to the wheel well. The mg had a long blast tube as it passed the wheel well. When the cannon was fitted it was one station further outboard. Afair the Duxford's 109 has a build number indicating it was built as an E1. Which was probably upgraded to E3 with the cannon. I think what you are seeing is the redundant mg barrel holes and the cannon barrel holes On the E1 and early E3 the gun camera was carried externally on a bracket under the starboard wing On this captured one the French report said this bracket carried a camera linked to the guns 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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