Post War Air National Guard Mustangs

[draggie748]

Does anyone know if postwar Air National Guard P/F-51D Mustangs had their wings filled and painted or were they the later baremetal scheme? I am about to start a WY ANG Mustang for a club competition and the instructions just give baremetal for the colour scheme and this can be taken as either scheme depending on the manufacturer of the decals.  None of the photos I've found are clear enough to disconcern between the two variations.

Thanks

Phil Hastie

Canberra Australia

[Giorgio N]

I've researched this matter in the past and I've not found any clear rule. Some aircraft seem to have retained the filled and painted wings, others seem to show the variations typical of a natural metal wing... what specific aircraft are you interested in ?

Edited April 28, 2020 by Giorgio N

[draggie748]

55 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

I've researched this matter in the past and I've not found any clear rule. Some aircraft seem to have retained the filled and painted wings, others seem to show the variations typical of a natural metal wing... what specific aircraft are you interested in ?

Giorgio,

The WY ANG aircraft with the black and yellow checks on the tail in the Caracal post War P-51D pt 2.

http://caracalmodels.com/cd48113.html

Cheers

Phil

 

[Giorgio N]

I've seen a picture of that aircraft, and it's tricky... the upper wings seem to show variation in the panels but at the same time the finish seems duller than the fuselage (that is in natural metal).

I'll see if I can post the picture here so that you can see yourself

[fastterry]

If you google 'Mustang wing panel lines....from the pre-eminent restorer's point of view' Large Scale Planes you will find a pile of dead bodies, the victims of a very robust discussion on the topic. The subject got so heated the mods had to lock it down however you will find some valuable info on mustang wings, both WW2 and later. And you thought discussions on late RLM colours could get ugly.

TRF

[72modeler]

Unless you can find good photos of that Mustang in WY ANG service that show whether or not it still retained its original filled and painted wings or you can find documentation that it had been through IRAN or major overhaul at the Sacramento or San Antonio Air Depots where the wings were usually stripped to bare metal or stripped and painted with silver lacquer, it would be pretty hard to determine, I would think. Not having the photo that Giorgio alluded to, it would just be my guess that it probably had been refurbished/overhauled, but have no idea if it left either depot with bare metal or painted wings.

 

For what it;s worth, P-51D-25NA 44-72973 served with the 352nd FG in WW2, then to the WY ANG as A-14, then to the AZ ANG in 1954; it crashed in Indiana on 8/13/54 due to engine failure and the pilot was killed. Data from the Forgotten Props website. Doesn't help, to be sure. Unless a photo can be found that clearly shows the surface finish, I would think whatever you decide will be right. Maybe seeing if there are Mustang photos on the WY ANG 187th FS  website? I have Rene Francillon's monograph on the US Air Guard, Aerofax 2, and it has  no WY ANG Mustang photos. Wish I could be more helpful.

Mike

[Truro Model Builder]

This is yet another of those topics that ultimately have no clear answer. In the end I suspect it will come down to which way you want to do it. Any smart alec who tells you that you are wrong can be challenged by being asked to show proof ether way, in the knowledge that there isn't any.

[Giorgio N]

Ok, I found that the same picture I have can be seen in this thread an another forum,.. hope it's no problem if I post this here

 

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/290547-cd48113-air-national-guard-p-51d-part-2/

 

As said before, if you look at the wing you'll notice that there seems to be variation in panels, something that would hint at an NM finish.

At the same time if you compare the way the wing reflects the light with the horizontal tailplanes, the latter look shinier while the wing is duller, something that would point to a painted wing... I compared with the tailplanes as these are roughly at the same angle as the wing in the picture.

As said before, it's a tricky one !

 

If you look at the other pictures in the same thread, you'll see that most seem to have painted wings, as there's no variation in panel lines (with the exception of the tips of course).

 

[11bravo]

I did a bunch of research on this subject when I did my F-51D Korean War build.  Here is what I found:

 

Some F-51's had the putty removed, some didn't.

Some F-51's were in NMF, some were repainted overall aluminum lacquer

Some F-51's had the cockpit repainted black, some kept the WW2 vintage interior green. 

Some F-51's had additional radio gear behind the pilot, some kept the WW2 vintage radios

Some F-51's had new cooling vents on the fuselage sides, aft of the wings, some didn't. 

Just about every F-51 were the later block numbers that had the HVAR stubs installed.

 

Hope this helps!  :)   

 

Bottom line is that you need to have good references for your subject and if you don't just wing it. Highly unlikely anyone can prove you wrong. 

 

[72modeler]

When I looked closely at the photos of the WY ANG Mustangs that @Giorgio N posted, the Mustang in the color photo definitely  has the filled and painted wings- look at the bare metal ailerons and flaps compared to the wings. The other two WY ANG Mustangs in the b&w photo also look to me that they also have filled and painted wings, judging by the dull finish and lack of visible panel lines. That being said, the WY Mustang in the third photo might possibly have stripped and silver lacquer wings, comparing that finish to the finish of the fuselage. Quite frankly, you could go either way- showing your chosen subject as it looked before or after air depot overhaul/refurbishment.

Mike 

[Giorgio N]

4 hours ago, 72modeler said:

When I looked closely at the photos of the WY ANG Mustangs that @Giorgio N posted, the Mustang in the color photo definitely  has the filled and painted wings- look at the bare metal ailerons and flaps compared to the wings. The other two WY ANG Mustangs in the b&w photo also look to me that they also have filled and painted wings, judging by the dull finish and lack of visible panel lines. That being said, the WY Mustang in the third photo might possibly have stripped and silver lacquer wings, comparing that finish to the finish of the fuselage. Quite frankly, you could go either way- showing your chosen subject as it looked before or after air depot overhaul/refurbishment.

Mike 

 

What do you think of the picture showing the subject of the decal sheet ?

[72modeler]

6 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

What do you think of the picture showing the subject of the decal sheet ?

Boy, oh, boy- you are going to put me to the test, Giorgio! Not that it matters, and I think Phil can go either way with how he finishes the wings on -973 and be correct, unless a better photo can be found, but after looking at all three photos, especially -973, here's my thinking on the wings, however weak my thinking might be, and Missus 72modeler can and does attest to that:

 

On the plan view color photo of a WY ANG P-51, you can see the difference between the bare metal flaps/ ailerons and the filled and painted wings- note how the filled and painted wings are duller in appearance. On bare metal Mustangs, there is a lower cowling panel aft of the intake grille that is darker than the surrounding panels as is the panel aft of the wing that covers the 'doghouse' radiator/oil cooler section. This is a characteristic of bare metal Mustangs. 

 

See the photo link to what an unpainted Mustang wing flap looks like for comparison.

https://www.ultracast.ca/product-p/ult48139.htm

 

If the photo of -973 had been  taken of the LH side, there might be better evidence as to whether or not -973 was bare metal or painted, as the data block forward of the cockpit was usually masked off when a Mustang was painted, and that area usually showed darker in appearance than the surrounding painted surfaces. That being said:

 

 The fuselage looks to be painted, as  all of the panels except the stainless steel panel that surrounds the exhaust appear to be uniform in appearance- in addition, the wing flap and the aileron have  the same appearance as the fuselage and the wing upper surface, and if these two flying surfaces were bare metal, we know they would not look the same as a filled painted wing. My guess, and it's just a guess, it that -973 has been painted with silver lacquer, but what is not clear in the photo is whether or not the wings are stripped and painted, or are filled and painted. I'm just spitballin' here, as we say in Texas!

 

Is this a great hobby, or what?

Mike

 

BTW, P-51D-25NA,  44-73264, painted as 'Gunfighter' and flown by the Commemorative Air Force, is an ex-WY ANG Mustang!

 

 

 

 

[draggie748]

Gents, Thanks for all your suggestions and photos. I think that I'm going to go with stripped, bare metal wings. and fuselage.  I'll keep looking at the photos in the mean time and see if I can come up with a more informed desicion.

Cheers

 

Phil

PS: 72modeller, Mike I photographed it at Oshkosh last year. 8-)