Looking for details on differing version of the Su-7

[Kushan_Farsight]

Hi All,

 

As the title states, im looking to try and pull some information together on what exactly made up the changes to differing models of the Su-7? (not considering its evolved forms here such as the Su-17/20/22)

 

Primarily looking for the more visual elements that i will need to take into account to build the correct model (for me in this case, a Su-7 BKL, as i think this is the variant with Jato boosters and emergency landing skids). The kit instructions for this model show it as 2 different options, but are rather vague at times.  

 

Ive found this helpful intro from Eduard and it does go some way to listing some differences -  https://www.eduard.com/out/media/1148.pdf
 

 

After you BM gurus thoroughly put to bed the idea of a camouflaged FJ-4 (ill learn not to take static displays as historical reference!) that Fury kit has gone back up into the stash. In its absence a rather worn bagged kit has taken its place -  

 

 

Im actually really impressed with this kit, and it seems to have nice levels of detail throughout. Any support on the topic would be much appreciated! I actually have ANOTHER kit of this in the same tooling, but would not have realised had it not been for the ScaleMates page, which showed that the same tooling of this 1991 kit is used in my newer 2017 kit - (that will be made as a Polish Su-7 BM though)

Potentially a subject of its very own topic, any tips on how to remove a stuck bit of transfer paper from the surface of a decal sheet? this is whats happened to this kit! 

Thanks in advance! 

[Hook]

Does this help?:

 

http://www.airvectors.net/avsu17_1.html#m3

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[exdraken]

Number of pylons, rough field landing gear, nuclear capability.. from the top of my head... 

Edited April 29, 2020 by exdraken

[Kushan_Farsight]

Cheers @Hook and @exdraken 

In my haste i forgot there is another site full of a wealth of aircraft information - right here!

 

Ive done a number of searches through old build logs, and its quite clear that this plane has been made a few times and has had a number of different boxing and decal options. As per usual theres the standard "my golly how did they get that level of detail!?!" on a few of the builds! 

 

One particularly helpful build log is of not just one but TWO Su-7 BKLs by @trickyrich -  showing some much needed details about the rato boosters (which seem not to feature on most builds)

 

Whilst this build log by @Reini78 served as good warning about the potential 5mm short fit of the nosecone, and made me realise i am far better off making a BKL than attempting the same artistic removal of the wing bulges as seen in his log! 

I feel i may have opened an Su-7 shaped can of worms here - These planes are really growing on me, theres all sorts of variants you can make, more aftermarket parts than i would know where to start with, and i can even represent one as a CURRENTLY OPERATIONAL version, as North Korea currently have 18 on their active register.    Is just one other Su-7 in the stash really enough? 

[Hook]

Of course not.

 

If you want a wealth of information on the Fitter family, you could do worse than this tome:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/books/sukhoi-su-7-famous-russian-aircraft-yefim-gordon-sergey-komissarov-dmitriy-komissarov--100661

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Vultures1]

5 hours ago, Hook said:

If you want a wealth of information on the Fitter family, you could do worse than this tome:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/books/sukhoi-su-7-famous-russian-aircraft-yefim-gordon-sergey-komissarov-dmitriy-komissarov--100661

 

I agree with that - well worth seeking out that reference work

[Kushan_Farsight]

Ive seen this book floating about -  but its rather pricey! Seems to sit at around £80>£200,  and is very hard to find, so i probably wont go for it at the moment - unless its available as a book loan/library item by luck! 

However, i was rather pleasantly surprised by how much SU-7 footage and information was on Youtube,  and found several old videos showing the Su-7 in service, notably the BKL variant operating from improvised runways. Was great to see the details of the undercarriage and the semi-ski landing gear arrangement. It also showed the Rocket Assisted Takeoff boosters in use, which actually surprised me because they are splayed out far wider and at an oblique angle to the aircraft than i would have thought from the kit instructions.

Ill leave this video here for you guys to get some inspiration. Seeing these Su-7s trundle over this grass field, kicking up all manner of debris and mud, makes you realize the durable these planes must have been, and explains why the Fitter series endured the best part of 4 decades of service.  Skip in to about 25:10 for some very shaky and hair raising takeoffs! 

 

 

Ive found about 20-30 videos of relevance in total and have put them together into a playlist. when i eventually get  moving on this build as a project in the WIP section, ill add those all in to help any future Su-7 modellers. 

If anyone can direct me to any online discussions or pages that have already gone down this road, even if they are in foreign languages, please do provide them as i am sure they will still be of use.
 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Kushan_Farsight
changed wording to better reflect content.

[Aardvark]

On 4/27/2020 at 6:38 PM, Kushan_Farsight said:

As the title states, im looking to try and pull some information together on what exactly made up the changes to differing models of the Su-7?

You suggest that you would describe in this topic all the differences between the series within the same modification or what?  What is classified as a Su-7 has various modifications, but within each production modification there are also series of releases that can differ significantly from each other.

As examples, "clear fighter" Su-7   have 28 series, total was produced  (don't remember at mind), about ~112 aircraft, 112/28 =   ~ 4 ( in reality 4-10 aircraft, because some series did not exist) in series.  clear fighter Su-7 first series 1-5 have very differences with clear fighter Su-7 last series 28, but clear fighter Su-7 last series 28 no have construction

differences with next modification Su-7B. E.t.c, e.t.c.

In addition, as new modifications appeared, the previous models were partially refined to the level of new modifications.

In addition, modifications supplied for export could also have differences, the so-called version "A" and version "B".

Do You seriously want someone to paint this in one topic? Just a discussion of the differences in the series of the pure Su-7 fighter in the Russian forum took about 10 pages....

1 hour ago, Kushan_Farsight said:

found several old soviet era propaganda

What kind of propaganda?  These films were intended only for pilots and the technical staff of the Soviet Air Force as an illustration of the possibilities of technology!

In fact it's movie technical manual, 

moreover, many of these films had vultures for "inside  use", "secret" and were a tidbit of milking any western intelligence.

As example, this video:

2 hours ago, Kushan_Farsight said:

 

 

this is a   only report 1966 year about " Testing sky on Su-7B".

Also as this movie about design and piloting features of the Su-7B 1961:

 

With the same success, propaganda can be called this film:

https://youtu.be/bmaPnpH7CIg

or this:

e.t.c

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[Kushan_Farsight]

Apologies if my post was taken as inflammatory, its not intended to cause annoyance.

I am not fluent in Russian, and so its not so clear for me when something is a technical or promotional video - i simply posted the link as it was a nice 30 min video showing the operation of the aircraft. Propaganda is probably a poor word, and i think its not really applicable to that video, but certainly some of the Su-7 footage on YT were pulled from some more politically orientated videos, especially some of the smaller ones. but i have no bother for the voiceover, i am only interested in what is shown on screen

 

37 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

Do You seriously want someone to paint this in one topic? Just a discussion of the differences in the series of the pure Su-7 fighter in the Russian forum took about 10 pages....

 

I don't want anyone to spend/use their time writing it all out if its already out and available information. For example, if you can provide a link to the Su-7 Fighter source on your Russian forum, that may be a good starting point for me to find more about the Su-7 B series. Because i dont know Cyrillic, it is often hard for me to find these good sources outside of the standard western sites and google searches. 

 

I will change the wording on my prior post to not cause issues in future. All i am looking for is any information people may have so i can do my own reading to create the best model my limited skills can perform.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Kushan_Farsight

You could try airwar.ru website. Scroll down to about quarter of this page and you will find five webpages on Su-7, starting with front line fighter Su-7 sans suffix and finishing with Su-7 BMK fighter-bomber. For drawings one can consult another airwar.ru page here. One book that is listed as a source on almost all webpages linked to above is Perviy sverhzvukovoj istrebitel-bombardirovchik Su-7 B (The first supersonic fighter-bomber Su-7) by Viktor Markovskiy and Igor Prihodchenko. It is very informative and it also includes a photo of Polish air force SU-7 BKL with BDZ-56 FN pylon. A rather superfluous caption states that in extreme circumstances air forces of other socialist states could have been tasked with tactical nuclear strike missions. Unfortunately, I was not able to find this photo on the web. Cheers

Jure

Edited April 30, 2020 by Jure Miljevic
spelling errors corrected (hopefully all of them)

[Aardvark]

4 hours ago, Kushan_Farsight said:

Apologies if my post was taken as inflammatory, its not intended to cause annoyance.

I am not fluent in Russian, and so its not so clear for me when something is a technical or promotional video - i simply posted the link as it was a nice 30 min video showing the operation of the aircraft. Propaganda is probably a poor word, and i think its not really applicable to that video, but certainly some of the Su-7 footage on YT were pulled from some more politically orientated videos, especially some of the smaller ones. but i have no bother for the voiceover, i am only interested in what is shown on screen

First of all, I do not set the task for myself to teach someone, to impose my point of view on someone or something else like that, I express my opinion and reinforce it with links to either my personal experience or public documents that can be found  on the Internet including.

Therefore, I am absolutely not offended at anything, why? it does not make sense.

But if they say a cat is a dog, I always try to write: "No, in my opinion, this is a cat, because it looks like a cat, meows like a cat, walks like a cat, and so on!"  that's all.

4 hours ago, Kushan_Farsight said:

I don't want anyone to spend/use their time writing it all out if its already out and available information

Great!  But the problem is that even those experts who understand Su-7, even if you wanted to describe everything to you, could not do this, because in the history of Su-7 there are many blank spots, and the Su-7 fighter is one of these spots

 

4 hours ago, Kushan_Farsight said:

For example, if you can provide a link to the Su-7 Fighter source on your Russian forum, that may be a good starting point for me to find more about the Su-7 B series.

No problem.

Topic about "clear fighter" version:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34017&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Topic about " fighter-bomber" version:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15037

 

About all modification:

http://forums.airbase.ru/2005/11/t35750--cu-7-kto-pomnit.html

 

http://forums.airforce.ru/matchast/4434-su-7-a/

 

 

4 hours ago, Kushan_Farsight said:

Because i dont know Cyrillic,

Google translate very fine translate sites from Russian to English and vice versa, also translate other languages.

 

4 hours ago, Kushan_Farsight said:

I will change the wording on my prior post to not cause issues in future. All i am looking for is any information people may have so i can do my own reading to create the best model my limited skills can perform.

You just went very far, it probably made sense to write something like:

"I have OEZ Su-7BKL, this modification like me, can you advise:

- what upgrade in this model hand made?

-what aftermarket on  this model have on market?

- what interesting camouflage can you recommend?

(but then immediately the counter question Camouflage which country do You need?)

If You don't like BKL, then algorithm repeat for other modification adding the question: "What is the difference between this modification and BKL?"

And when you find that camouflage and that modification that you need, then it makes sense to look for differences in the specific series of this modification.

 

If it’s very simple, publish a photo and write: "I want to make such a model!"

And in this topic, we collectively explain as much as possible and what is needed for this.

😉😁

 

B.R.

Serge

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Aardvark

[Kushan_Farsight]

These four links you have provided @Aardvark have been an invaluable source of documents, references and images to work from. Thankyou.  

Whats-more, the online game i play (War Thunder) which has suddenly out of the blue decided to add in the Su-7b in its latest update (along with the Mirage and F-104) . So i can also use this to get a full 3D walk-around of the outside and a detailed model of the cockpit. It will be interesting to see how these match and differ from the references and images in the links you provided. 

Ive now made a start on my kit and will get a WIP thread up soon  

Edited May 21, 2020 by Kushan_Farsight
changed F-106 to F-104.