Fairey Barracuda bomb load

[rob85]

I’m coming to the end of my 1/72 special hobby build and have found out the markings in this box never carried torpedoes. 
 

Other than the 1000lb bomb in the kit what else did they carry?

 

ive seen the depth charge canisters and there is a pic of what looks like RAF 500lb bombs held under wing. 
 

any other ordinance? I’m coming up a bit blank.

 

Rob

[Graham Boak]

Which boxing have you got?  If it is the one with BPF or SEAC markings, they never went into action.. The FAA abandoned torpedo training after the Battle of Leyte Gulf, because of the lack of suitable targets.   At abut the same time they disbanded Barracuda squadrons working up in the Indian Ocean because of lack of power in hot climates, and used the stocks built up of Avengers (which couldn't be used for British torpedoes, nor were dive bombers) with the BPF for compatibility with the US.  A few reappeared in Far Eastern waters on the early Light Fleet Carriers, so perhaps this is one of those?  Presumably those in SEAC and possibly BPF markings (less likely) flew with torpedoes in training.

 

The bomb usually linked to the barracuda was the special 1600lb armour-piercing one used against the Titrpitz, but there were never many of those.  Otherwise they would just have used the standard set of British bombs, although probably not a 1000lb centreline and multiple 500lb under the wings.  Either/or.  The Barra did carry out a few torpedo strikes against shipping in Norwegian waters, but that's the sum total.

[rob85]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Which boxing have you got?  If it is the one with BPF or SEAC markings, they never went into action.. The FAA abandoned torpedo training after the Battle of Leyte Gulf, because of the lack of suitable targets.   At abut the same time they disbanded Barracuda squadrons working up in the Indian Ocean because of lack of power in hot climates, and used the stocks built up of Avengers (which couldn't be used for British torpedoes, nor were dive bombers) with the BPF for compatibility with the US.  A few reappeared in Far Eastern waters on the early Light Fleet Carriers, so perhaps this is one of those?  Presumably those in SEAC and possibly BPF markings (less likely) flew with torpedoes in training.

 

The bomb usually linked to the barracuda was the special 1600lb armour-piercing one used against the Titrpitz, but there were never many of those.  Otherwise they would just have used the standard set of British bombs, although probably not a 1000lb centreline and multiple 500lb under the wings.  Either/or.  The Barra did carry out a few torpedo strikes against shipping in Norwegian waters, but that's the sum total.

Cheers for the info, as ever, Graham. The below is the option I’m competing.

 

from this boxing, so the box art option

 

 

so it’s BPF, so sounds like is should never have had anything.... how sad.

 

Rob

 

[rob85]

Also I’ve just read the write up on it. It flew in 1946 so very much doubt it ever carried anything. And as it had its radar removed and the bulged blister replaced to improve performance I can imagine they did away with any bomb racks.

 

Rob

[Seahawk]

The standard bomb load for Barracudas when they served in the East Indies Fleet was 2 500lb bombs and 2 250lb, carried on the underwing racks.  It was all they could realistically manage.  The 500lb would been the MC type available in several new Airfix kits (the Bomber Resupply Set and Typhoon come to mind).  I imagine the 250lb bomb would have been the GP type: you get 6 of those with the Swordfish.  Barracudas arrived in the BPF with the Light Fleet Carriers (Glory, Vengeance and the like).  Off-hand (away from my references) I don’t think they arrived in the front line before VJ-Day in time to see real action but they may well have been bombed up in case of last-ditch Japanese resistance during the reoccupation of Hong Kong and the like.

[JackG]

According to wiki, April 1944 saw 827 Squadron participate jointly with an American force during Operation Cockpit .   Operating from the carrier Illustrious,  17  Barracudas bombed Japanese port and oil facilities on Sabang Island (off the northern tip of Sumatra), as well as Lho Nga airfield.

 

I would not know if the fuselage codes would of been the same 374 as provided in the kit, which is also an 827 Squadron machine.

 

regards,

Jack

[Seahawk]

28 minutes ago, JackG said:

According to wiki, April 1944 saw 827 Squadron participate jointly with an American force during Operation Cockpit .   Operating from the carrier Illustrious,  17  Barracudas bombed Japanese port and oil facilities on Sabang Island (off the northern tip of Sumatra), as well as Lho Nga airfield.

 

I would not know if the fuselage codes would of been the same 374 as provided in the kit, which is also an 827 Squadron machine.

No, April 1944 was the East Indies Fleet era, before they were discarded, as Graham says, in favour of Avengers.  The 3-digit side numbers were introduced for the British Pacific Fleet shortly after its formation.

[JackG]

So the roundels for East Indies time frame would be the European version with red centers removed, and no addition of the bars?

Edited April 27, 2020 by JackG

[Graham Boak]

I'd have to dig out photos to be sure, but I suspect they would have been the small diameter SEAC roundel, but with white rather than light blue centres. However there was some variety in FAA roundels in the Indian Ocean. You can also see larger roundels with a broad blue ring and a small white centre.  These presumably were repainted standard roundels.

[Dervish]

First time I’ve tried this. I hope these links work!

 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ata9gakfuOrQg6oCXSMv-CqmQ_J2ow

 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ata9gakfuOrQg6oEHsLcPbgEaTJ8kQ

[EwenS]

Colossus, Vengeance, Venerable and Glory arrived at Sydney in the first couple of weeks of August 1945 with 827, 812, 814 and 837 respectively with Barracuda Mk.II as part of 11 ACS. Ship histories can be found here http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-aContents.htm Aircraft from Venerable and Vengeance carried out some strikes on suicide craft at Hong Kong in late August.

 

Couple of things.

1. In 1944 827 sqn was in home waters mostly on Furious when at sea.

2. Sometime in the summer of 1945 (can’t remember exactly when at the moment) the 11ACS Barracudas were reduced to 2 seaters, the TAGs being posted off the squadrons. I would assume the guns were then removed.

3. These squadrons only gained the BPF markings (blue/white roundels with bars and 3 digit codes) en route to Australia (between Ceylon and Oz IIRC). Before that there were letter/number codes. As for roundels I’m not sure they were in the East Indies long enough to gain dark blue/light blue blue/white roundels. Some aircraft collected in Ceylon as replacements might have had them.

 

Two other Barracuda sqns reached Ceylon by VJ Day, with another planned to go out (it got as far as being loaded in the U.K.). These were 815 and 821 on escort carriers Smiter and Trumpeter and 810 on Queen respectively all equipped with the Barracuda TR.III. I’ve never understood what the plan was for these squadrons in particular whether the carriers were simply transporting them to the theatre or if the were intended as the basis of AS groups in support of the BPF.

 

History of Vengeance and 812 are here http://www.hms-vengeance.co.uk

Edited April 28, 2020 by EwenS
Edited to correct error re roundel colours

[JackG]

This might be of some help:

https://www.armouredcarriers.com/illustrious-and-saratoga

 

The fourth video down entitled Eastern Fleet: USS Saratoga with HMS Illustrious has some film of the Barracuda.   The landing shot indicates no roundels on the undersides.   Fuselage codes may be black, something seems to be there, but difficult to tell as it is so brief.

 

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

[Seahawk]

1 hour ago, EwenS said:

 Before that there were letter/number codes. As for roundels I’m not sure they were in the East Indies long enough to gain dark blue/light blue roundels. 

I think we owe it to posterity not to perpetuate the error, propagated by under-informed kit and transfer manufacturers, that East Indies Fleet (EIF) aircraft ever wore "SEAC" ie dark blue/light blue markings.  They did not: the Admiralty's instructions required FAA aircraft to use White (as in white, not "India white" aka pale blue) in their markings and I cannot think of a single photo that incontrovertibly shows pale blue to have been used in the national markings of an EIF aircraft.  See Geoff Thomas's Eyes For the Phoenix (or his earlier, groundbreaking article in SAM on British markings in the Far East) for quotations from the relevant contemporary documentation. 

 

There was variety in East Indies Fleet national markings but not really that much.  The basic rules were simple:

• upper wing: retain the outer diameter of the normal "European" roundel but remove the red from the centre by enlarging the blue area and adding a white centre of 9" diameter;
• fuselage and underwing: paint out existing roundel and replace with 16" blue roundel with 6" dia white centre
• fin flash 24" x 18" split 6" white/12" blue.

The main exceptions are twofold:

•  where shortcuts have been taken with the fuselage and/or underwing roundels by treating them like the upper wing roundels ie converting them to blue/white but retaining the outer diameter of the original roundels.  I think I can recall rare instances of the Yellow border of the old fuselage C1 roundel being retained but my memory is possibly getting contaminated with what sometimes happened in SEAC.
•  some Hellcat units working up in South Africa at the end of the war which used larger roundels with markedly larger white centres, akin to the RAAF roundel.

There are other photos which appear to show exceptions, especially in upper wing roundels where it sometimes looks as if a small upper wing roundel has been used.  Most of these are, in my opinion, result from the blue of the original roundel fading to merge into the surrounding camouflage while the fresh blue to modify the centre of the roundel still stands out in contrast,  But I haven't honestly been able to satisfy myself that they can all be explained away in this way.

 

[diamant]

Hello

 

This topic is very intersting to me since we are also trying to build some Barracudas. 

 

I has been really hard to me finding photos of Barracudas in SEAC markings were the serial number could be read it. 

[Seahawk]

6 hours ago, diamant said:

I has been really hard to me finding photos of Barracudas in SEAC markings were the serial number could be read it. 

Yes, I haven't found any photographs confirming serial or serial/code correlations for East Indies Fleet Barracudas yet, not even in Malcolm Willis' recent book on the aircraft.  If it helps, the prescribed diameter of the upper wing roundel on a Barracuda is 55", with a 9" white centre.

[EwenS]

10 hours ago, Seahawk said:

I think we owe it to posterity not to perpetuate the error, propagated by under-informed kit and transfer manufacturers, that East Indies Fleet (EIF) aircraft ever wore "SEAC" ie dark blue/light blue markings.  They did not: the Admiralty's instructions required FAA aircraft to use White (as in white, not "India white" aka pale blue) in their markings and I cannot think of a single photo that incontrovertibly shows pale blue to have been used in the national markings of an EIF aircraft.  See Geoff Thomas's Eyes For the Phoenix (or his earlier, groundbreaking article in SAM on British markings in the Far East) for quotations from the relevant contemporary documentation. 

 

There was variety in East Indies Fleet national markings but not really that much.  The basic rules were simple:

• upper wing: retain the outer diameter of the normal "European" roundel but remove the red from the centre by enlarging the blue area and adding a white centre of 9" diameter;
• fuselage and underwing: paint out existing roundel and replace with 16" blue roundel with 6" dia white centre
• fin flash 24" x 18" split 6" white/12" blue.

The main exceptions are twofold:

•  where shortcuts have been taken with the fuselage and/or underwing roundels by treating them like the upper wing roundels ie converting them to blue/white but retaining the outer diameter of the original roundels.  I think I can recall rare instances of the Yellow border of the old fuselage C1 roundel being retained but my memory is possibly getting contaminated with what sometimes happened in SEAC.
•  some Hellcat units working up in South Africa at the end of the war which used larger roundels with markedly larger white centres, akin to the RAAF roundel.

There are other photos which appear to show exceptions, especially in upper wing roundels where it sometimes looks as if a small upper wing roundel has been used.  Most of these are, in my opinion, result from the blue of the original roundel fading to merge into the surrounding camouflage while the fresh blue to modify the centre of the roundel still stands out in contrast,  But I haven't honestly been able to satisfy myself that they can all be explained away in this way.

 

Seahawk

Yes you are quite right. That is what I get for trying to make a sensible post while trying, and clearly failing to multi-task!  I've been back and edited my post.

[EwenS]

While looking for something else I came across a download of "Eyes for the Phoenix" for anyone interested and not too worried about copyright.

 

https://epdf.pub/eyes-for-the-phoenix-allied-aerial-photo-reconnaissance-operations-in-south-east.html

 

[JackG]

Would this be a possible serial, taken from the link posted earlier.  The two colour stripe on the tail seems to indicate the Far East:

 

 

regards,

Jack

[EwenS]

Judging by the tropical rig of the sailor and the tail fin marking, then the picture was taken in the Far East, probably Ceylon. The "tug" is a self propelled aircraft lighter of the type carried by HMS Unicorn. She left the UK at the end of Dec 1943 and arrived in Ceylon at the end of Jan 1944 with Illustrious.

 

I've blown the photo up and am having trouble deciphering the serial. It looks to me like LS473. Only problem is that this aircraft is supposed to have crashed and been w/o crashing into the sea on 6 Jan 1944 in the UK when with 817 Sqn per Air Briain's FAA Aircraft 1939-45.

[Dervish]

This photo is LS472 at China Bay in September 1944. Its IWM photo A25849. A25848 shows it being craned onto the lighter.

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

On 4/27/2020 at 7:01 PM, EwenS said:

 

Two other Barracuda sqns reached Ceylon by VJ Day, with another planned to go out (it got as far as being loaded in the U.K.). These were 815 and 821 on escort carriers Smiter and Trumpeter and 810 on Queen respectively all equipped with the Barracuda TR.III. I’ve never understood what the plan was for these squadrons in particular whether the carriers were simply transporting them to the theatre or if the were intended as the basis of AS groups in support of the BPF.

 

My Father was an Observer on 810 embarked in Queen, and my Uncle Ted was his pilot.  They’d worked up definitely on the assumption that they’d be put into strike action when they got there, though Dad never went into more detail than that (& he was a sprog, so might not have known anyway), and they were Mk.IIIs as you say.  They sailed from the Clyde but didn’t get much further than the Irish Sea before being turned round.  Dad always used to claim the Japanese surrender was nothing to do with atomic bombs; “they’d heard we were on our way so gave up on the spot!”

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[diamant]

 Hi.

 

I would like to thanks for all the information posted and shared here.

 

I believe that I have at least some confirmed Barracudas in SEAC markings to build as part of our subcollection.

 

1) Barracuda PM963 371 A 812 Squadron HMS Vengeance

 

Reference Aeroplane 2016 02 Barracuda in the Far East.  The serial number is barely visible on the photo.

 

2) Barracuda LS472 at China Bay in September 1944. The small roundel could be seen on the upper surface of the wing.

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:41 AM, JackG said:

Would this be a possible serial, taken from the link posted earlier.  The two colour stripe on the tail seems to indicate the Far East:

 

 

On 4/28/2020 at 4:48 PM, Dervish said:

This photo is LS472 at China Bay in September 1944. Its IWM photo A25849. A25848 shows it being craned onto the lighter.

 

 

3) Barracuda PN121

Reference: http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?25902-Fairey-Barracuda   (I asked the same topic some time ago in that Forum).

Any idea about the spinner?

 

 

 

 

4) But there is fourth Barracuda which I would like to add (with big blue upper wing roundel and a small white center. The only photo I found is the one posted here from the short video but nothing more than that.

 

On 4/28/2020 at 4:46 AM, Seahawk said:

Yes, I haven't found any photographs confirming serial or serial/code correlations for East Indies Fleet Barracudas yet, not even in Malcolm Willis' recent book on the aircraft.  If it helps, the prescribed diameter of the upper wing roundel on a Barracuda is 55", with a 9" white centre.

 

On 4/27/2020 at 3:26 PM, JackG said:

 

 

 

 

I will appreciate any comments since I might be wrong. I do not know about this topic.

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Cheers

Santiago

 

 

 

 

 

[JackG]

Another good film  found here, just preceding the entry for OPERATION BANQUET, August 24-29

https://www.armouredcarriers.com/british-eastern-fleet-royal-navy-operations-in-the-indian-ocean

 

or direct youtube link:

 

 

Found it interesting the 500 lb bombs are attached first to the rack, then raised into position, all while the wing is swept back in the stored position.  Note fuselage code 5H

 

 

Bit further down on the page site is this photo directly linked to IMW .   On the upper portion of the landing gear can be seen

fuselage codes 4L and  4B ?

 

 

 

regards,

Jack