Spitfire Identification ?

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

     Hello everybody a Quick question concerning Identification ? Is this Spitfire truly a Mk.VII ? ⬇️ Or is it a mis-marked HF.Mk.VIII ? I looked it up, 453 squadron never operated the type ? Only three Squadrons listed using DU* codes. #’s 70, 80, 312 Squadrons. I personally think its 312 (Czech) . I admit I'm no expert and only checked Wiki pages, so If 453 Sq. is accurate then thats good as well. 

If it is a Mk.VII can an Eduard Mk.VIII be backdated/modified to a VII ? 

     And this one ⬇️ Is this camouflage even a possibility ? Or is it someones fantasy or poor photo interpretation. I know some aircraft in Italy that started with Desert schemes of DE/MS were sometimes overpainted with green paints. Primarily P-40’s if I remember correctly. I believe this to be a Mk.VIII though a Mk.IX is also possible ? 

 

 

Please any thoughts or info would be helpful ? 
 

Dennis

Edited April 27, 2020 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Rafwaffe]

It is a Mark VII. This particular aircraft belonged to the station flight at RAF Skeabrae. The markings were probably applied by 312 Squadron when they were at the Airfield at one point and it was used by 453 when they were there at some point as well (I have decal set with these markings somewhere in my stash).
 

To backdate the VIII to a VII is achievable as per this thread (I have an Eduard VIII I’m planning to backdate)

 

As for that Camouflage pattern on a US aircraft. I guess it’s possible (though haven’t seen any pics that prove a three colour pattern (though I am not really a USAAF modeller)

[Admiral Puff]

Dennis, according to Morgan & Shacklady, MD114 was an HF VII, fitted with a Merlin 64. 453 did operate Spitfires, but their code was " FU".

 

And as to HL.F, I've never seen a Spitfire painted like that. I suspect it's either poor photo interpretation, as you say, or someone's been smoking something ...

[Ed Russell]

1 hour ago, Rafwaffe said:

This particular aircraft belonged to the station flight at RAF Skeabrae.

Yes indeed. 453 did operate these Spitfires at Skeabrae, which was a 'recuperation' post for squadrons taken out of the front line. The DU code was that of 312 (who apparently put their code over existing letters) and 453, sensibly, did not repaint aircraft they were only borrowing.

https://www.redroomodels.com/product/red-roo-spitfire-mk-vii-453-sqn-raaf-uk-1943-1-72/

https://www.redroomodels.com/product/red-roo-spitfire-mk-ixc-453-sqn-late-war-1-48/

1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Is this camouflage even a possibility ?

As far as the multi-coloured one goes, a look through Spitfires and Yellow Tail Mustangs will show quite a few that could well be that combination of colours. There are accounts from 52nd FG maintenance personnel somewhere about how frequently they repainted aircraft, often losing the serial numbers in the process. I'm a sceptic about 'unusual' colour schemes but this one may well be a real thing.

Edit - According to my (incomplete) notes HL code may indicate  308FS 31FG who operated Spitfire Mk V. More research needed.

[fastterry]

This aircraft picture was/is in the book 'the Big Show' by Pierre Clostermann and was flown by Ian Blair who shot down a recce Bf109G-6 over Scapa Flow on the 21st Feb 1944. Clostermann writes as if he was Blairs wingman in this action but apparently it was a bit of artistic license on his part and it was another pilot, however the incident was true. MD114 was damaged by debri from the Bf109 and made a forced landing on one of the islands in the area (Stronsay).

TRF

[Giorgio N]

Regarding HL-F she's a Mk.viii of 308th FS of 31st FG USAAF.

I am very skeptical of the scheme shown, there are a number of colour pictures of this Squadron aircraft taken in Italy not long before their replacement with Mustangs and all to me show a standard desert scheme, sure not pristine and with signs of touchups, bit still desert scheme

[fastterry]

Just to add a bit more info, there has been a number of topics on here in the past related to this subject. Google 'Pierre Clostermann HF Spitfire' & 'Spitfire MkVII MD114-question of fuselage roundel' Britmodeller. Regarding the fuselage roundel, the decal sheet I believe is correct ie type C. Some time ago I built a model of MD114 in 1/32 using a PCM Mk IX kit with Hasegawa pointed tips and after re-reading the articles above I had a quick check to see if I had the correct fuselage roundels. Phew all ok. Only thing I didn't pick up was the bottom edge of the 'glass' behind the cockpit lines up with the lower edge of the canopy. The only Spitfire that has this feature AFIK. And no I'm not going to change it.

TRF

[Giorgio N]

3 minutes ago, fastterry said:

Just to add a bit more info, there has been a number of topics on here in the past related to this subject. Google 'Pierre Clostermann HF Spitfire' & 'Spitfire MkVII MD114-question of fuselage roundel' Britmodeller. Regarding the fuselage roundel, the decal sheet I believe is correct ie type C. Some time ago I built a model of MD114 in 1/32 using a PCM Mk IX kit with Hasegawa pointed tips and after re-reading the articles above I had a quick check to see if I had the correct fuselage roundels. Phew all ok. Only thing I didn't pick up was the bottom edge of the 'glass' behind the cockpit lines up with the lower edge of the canopy. The only Spitfire that has this feature AFIK. And no I'm not going to change it.

TRF

 

Almost. This was a feature required by the canopy used in this pressurised variant and a similar arrangement was used on the following pressurised Spitfires: the PR. X and XIX. Now not all XIXs were pressurised, those lacking this feature had a standard rear canopy, with the sills higher on the fuselage.

Interestingly, some kits for some reason represent this, most famous probably the Hasegawa 1/72 Spitfire IX... tha should not have this style of rear canopy

[Seahawk]

6 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

Interestingly, some kits for some reason represent this, most famous probably the Hasegawa 1/72 Spitfire IX... tha should not have this style of rear canopy

Think Hasegawa were just covering all their bases: they also issued a HF.VII.  It does mean you have to do a smidgen of overpainting for VIIIs and IXs though.  Not that anyone builds Hasegawa Spitfires in 1/72 any more, now that the superlative Eduard kit is available for less than the Airfix one.

[Graham Boak]

The DU codes became those of the Skeabrae Station Flight, officially at least from Jan.1944.  Skeabrae had a fleet of Mk.Vs, which were used by squadrons on rotation for a rest, and these usually did carry the user squadron codes, squadron pride being what it was - I don't know about 453 and their Mk.Vs, but a bunch of Aussies lacking such pride is difficult to imagine.  Also attached to these units was a few (a pair of?) high altitude Spitfires, initially Mk.VI but later Mk,.VII, and it was these which retained the DU codes into 1944.  There is no suggestion AFAIK that Clostermann's 602 squadron didn't apply their LO codes to their Mk.Vs.  As an ex-Auxiliary, 602 would not have been short of squadron pride itself.

[fastterry]

Graham, in his book Clostermann mentions that he was in an earlier machine with the standard rudder. Could this have been a Mk VI do you think? I know it wasn't him in the action but F/L Bennetts as F/O Blair's wingman.

TRF

[303sqn]

The Station Flight at Skeabrae was equipped mainly with Mk VIIs. Usually one flight of the squadrons sent north was based on detachment at Skeabrae while the other flight was based at Sumburgh with Mk Vs. It was customary for aircraft, including Mk V and Mk VI as well as Mk VII, to remain at Skeabrae and units posted normally consisted of pilots and ground crew who took over the Skeabrae aircraft leaving their own aircraft behind. Over a year 312, 118, 453, 602 and 313 squadrons passed through Skeabrae. After 312 Squadron  left in September 1943 the Spitfires continued to use 312's DU codes. It is believed that this was an oversight by the squadron replacing 312 Squadron and this became an entranced practice. This was not unique, Northolt Station and Wing Headquarter Flights used SZ codes. The Czechs used three Spitfire VIIs, MB763/DU-W, MB765, MB828. Later there was another, MD122/DU-Z. MD114/DU-G was allocated to the Station Flight Feb 1944.

 

Operationally, the  Skeabrae Mk VIIs saw little use. 312 Squadron did not report any operational flights with the Mk VII between August and October 1943. 118 Squadron, which replaced 312 in October did not use the Mk VIIs either and 453 Squadron flew one uneventful scramble on 7th November. F/O McDermott, MB828/Y and P/O Ferguson, MB765/G to 37,000 ft without finding the three bandits that had vanished. Only three flights out of 50 were flown on Mk VIIs during November and two out of 50 during December and none during January. 602 Squadron replaced 453 in mid-January but the Mk VIIs were only used to complement aircraft numbers and regarded as main equipment. Three flights out of 14 were recorded during January and four out of 50 in February with the first victory for a MK VII from Skeabrae. 602 Squadron was replaced by 118 Squadron who recorded only two scrambles. On 21st May, W/OA  A Taylor in MD122 and F/Sgt C H P Bayton in MD138 and on 30th May F/O J J Parker RAAF in MD118 and W/O A Taylor in MD138. The first time the section returned to base with nothing to report, the second, shot down a Ju 88 approx 25 miles from Kirkall. It was the second and last victory for an Orkneys based Mk VII. 313 Squadron arrived on the 11th July with a significant number of pilots that were non-Czech. Operations began the next day and uneventful scrambles and patrols are recorded that month but generally  air activity was low. 313 Squadron continued to use their time flying the aircraft of the Skeabrae Station Flight, usually to train pilots with no experience on the type. The Mk VII seems to have been used during July and August only. On the 15th July P/O Robert E Dodds wrecked MB763/DU-Z when he overshot on landing and tipped up.  

 

The incident in The Big Show that Clostermann says took place on the 21st February 1944 actually took place  on the 20th February. Operational records and combat reports do not mention Clostermann having any part in the combat.

 

On the 20th February F/L W.G.Bennetts and F/O 'Ian' Blair made an uneventful scramble in Mk Vs at 10.55. Two hours later they were called for another scramble. This time Bennetts taking off in Mk VII MB763 DU*W and Blair in Mk VII MD114 DU*G. They climbed to 32,000 ft and saw vapour trails. Ground control confirmed it was an enemy aircraft. Blair gave chase but the EA spotted the Spitfires and turned for home. Blair opened fire at extreme range with no result. Bennett opened fire at 250 yards but his gunsight stop working and he broke off. Blair closed and fired at 200 yards. The starboard wing of the EA broke off and fell into the sea. The pilot, Oberleutnant Helmut Quednau of 1.(F)/120 was killed in his Bf 109 G-6/R3 coded A6+XH. Debris from the EA hit the radiator of Blair's Spitfire and he made a forced landing at Stronsay.

[Graham Boak]

MB763 would have been one of the first batch of Mk.VIIs with the round rudder, and standard Day Fighter camouflage.  It would be very interesting to find photos of Mk.VIs in the later colours, or with the later rudder.  616 Sq under Peter Brothers did repaint their Mk.VIIs in Day Fighter when operating over the Channel in mid 1944.