Fiat G 50 Freccia***FINISHED***

[PeterB]

Hi Craig

 

Not so much the wing to fuselage but the joint down the centre of the rear fuselage which was "concave" so I had to build it up with filler to get a perfectly flat fuselage bottom, and as I said, the very hard plastic made that rather tedious. Giorgio said that the flat surface was a throwback from an original requirement to fit a light bomb carrier underneath. Although that was dropped, it appears that an internal bay for light bombs was incorporated in the G50, but that was apparently replaced by extra fuel in the G50-bis or so my books state.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[PeterB]

Hi,

As paint colours tends to be a touchy subject I thought the following qualification is appropriate. This is based on what I read in a number of books and articles and so may contain errors, not to mention probable mis-spelling! I make no claim to be an expert on Italian paints and would be happy for feedback!

 

It would seem that the Italian Air Force entered the war with a set of standard "Mimietico" or camouflage colours including various shades of Giallo (yellow), Bruno (brown), Verde (green) Grigio (grey) and Marrone (red-brown). They also used various other colours such as various shades of Verde Olivia (Olive Green), Grigio Azzuro (Blue Grey) etc. Most Italian planes in "metropolitan" Italy had a green base on the uppersurfaces apparently, whilst those overseas particularly the desert, had a Giallo Mimetico (GM for short) base in the early part of the war. 

 

I have been able to identify 4 variants of GM so far - there may be more. GM1 was a light yellowish cream, GM2 was a lemon colour, and GM3 looked like this according to White Ensign Colourcoats paints.

Needs another coat but you will get the idea - rather more yellow than most "sand" paints to my mind but probably fairly accurate - not sure if Jamie has made any changes now he makes Colourcoats. As the war progressed GM 4 became more prevalent - that is more of a pale browny sand, and by the time the MC 202 Folgore arrived in 1942, a lot of them were painted in the darker Nocciola Chiaro (light hazlenut). My resurrected Revell Fiat CR 42, the predecessor of the G 50, will be in the same shade but with a different mottle.

 

It will be interesting to see how the probably yellow engine cowling goes with GM3 - may end up doing a version with a white cowling instead! Should be starting on the mottle by the weekend - fun! In the meantime must find my sunglasses😆!

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited May 13, 2020 by PeterB

[Hewy]

Good read about the camo colours pete .

[modelling minion]

Looks good to me Pete, the issue of "correct" colours is one which will never go away and the best way to look at it is that if you are happy with your research and how your model looks then that is all that matters.

[PeterB]

Thanks Craig,

 

Colour, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I think over the years we each tend to build up a mental image of what we think a particular colour should look like. Research is fine as far as it goes, but as we all know there are many experts but little agreement between them on some subjects. Photos may be the best source and yet as proven time and time again the lighting and emulsion can play tricks and in any case paint manufacturers in those days were not always that accurate in mixing up the colours, and field application could play havoc with whatever regulations were laid down at times. As you say, the best we can do is make a choice and go with it. I must have mellowed since I passed 65 because I am no longer a "rivet counter"! I try and avoid making statements like "this is the correct colour"as otherwise somebody is bound to come back with "evidence" that I was wrong! I am not entirely happy with Giallo Mimetico 3 as GM 4 is more like my idea of an Italian "sand" but I will finish painting and see what it looks like. Mind you, I thought the Nocciola Chiaro I used on my Folgore looked a bit dark, but once it was on it was fine, to my mind at least.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited May 13, 2020 by PeterB

[Graham Boak]

In this case, the four different GMs were not meant as distinct paints but came from different manufacturers and were used by different aircraft manufacturers.  There was an excellent booklet produced some time ago which remains unbeaten as a guide to Italian camouflage use.  It will say which of the four GNs was used by the G.50.  I can dig it out if you really want to know...

[PeterB]

Thanks Graham,

 

That would make sense.So for example Fiat used paint form whoever manufactured what we call GM3, and Macchi used the one who made GM4. Having said that the very wide variation in colours is a bit strange. GM1 for example, the creamy colour, looks like the one used on SM 79's pre war.

 

I have been using a chart in an Italian publication Aerei Modellismo which gives details of which scheme was applied to various types at different dates, plus "profiles" from publications such as Ali i Colori, but your booklet sounds interesting if it is not too much trouble.Can you please tell me what it says for the Fiat CR 42 and G 50-bis and the Macchi MC 200?

 

Cheers

 

Pete

 

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by PeterB

[Graham Boak]

OK.  Bearing in mind that the booklet is in Italian and quite detailed, but here goes.  It was produced in 1977 by CMPT, the Club Modellismo Plastico of Ravenna.

 

The G.50 appears to have been in Giallo Mimetico 3 and Verde Mimetico 1.  Later it was Giallo Mimetico 3 and Verde Mimetico 3, thought to have been in North Africa, sometimes with a more stripey appearance of the green.  Final ones were in Nocciola Chiaro, Verde Olivia Scuro 2 over Grigio Azzurro Chiaro in a more network scheme.

 

The CR.42 was more varied initially based on GM 1 or 3, VM 53192 or 3, and Marrone Mimetico  1 or 2.  Later as G.50.

 

The Macchi C.200 had GM 4 with VM 2 and Bruno Mimetico, then GM 4 with VM2 in Africa, then NC, VOS 2 (as used in Russia) 

 

All three operated in VM 53192 base with VM 3 mottle. VM 51392 is a lighter green than the others.

 

These were all linked to photographs and diagrams of the patterning.   There is a set of colour chips, which I believe were used in the creation of WEM Colourcoats - I don't believe that Jamie has altered these, probably not least because of a low demand for Italian paints in the UK.

 

I don't think that I have managed to catch all the possible variations in this fairly quick summary.  It does seem however that my comment about specific colours just being variations from different manufacturers doesn't seem to be entirely justified.  Certainly there is a clear difference between the use of GM1 and GM 3 based on time rather than anything else.  It has been rather a long time since I consulted this, and it took some finding because it wasn't filed where it should have been!  But if it hadn't have been today it would have been some other time.

[PeterB]

Thanks Graham,

 

That is very useful, and to a large extent backs up the info I already had about GM3 for Fiat and GM4 for Macchi, with the Nocciola Chiaro coming into use later, say in about 1942. I have seen pics of pre-war SM 79 etc in an "ivory" colour and I guess that would have been GM1, Whilst your comment about the different paint manufacturers did make some sense and may be correct in terms say of VM3 vs VM4, some of the other colours, as shown on Jamie's website, are radically different, for example what White Ensign labelled Verde Mimietico 1 looks as if it might have been cockpit green, it is so light, though I have seen illustrations of a very light green over a dark green so it was probably an external colour.

 

As we both know, colours are a bit of a minefield, which is probably why I find them so interesting.

 

Cheers

 

Pete 

[Graham Boak]

The Ivory colour may have been Bianco Ivorio 5, but I think this is a later colour.  However there was a prewar Cachi Ivorio Chiaro, which was used on SM.81s and Ca.133s in colonial use, but perhaps a bit early for the SM79?  This is not represented in the colour chips.  GM 1 is shown as a fairly bright yellow, as used in the three colour banded scheme in the Spanish Civil War period.  GM 2 is more of a sand/Middle Stone colour, GM 3 quite an intense Yellow, GM 4 more earthy,  VM 1 is an olive green, a medium olive drab.   VM 2 and 3 are both very dark, VM 2 being a bottle green and VM 3 tending towards brown.  VOS 2 is very dark.  The interior colour is Verdi Anticorrisione which is heading towards Sky, a bit lighter than the RAF's Grey Green.

 

I must admit getting the WEM colours, admiring them, and putting them away for a rainy day - or perhaps a snowy day which we never get in the Fylde.  I don't recall ever actually comparing them, even the lids, with the CMPR chart.  Most remiss of me, the kits are there waiting.

[PeterB]

Hi,

 

Whilst researching the G 50 I have I think solved my problem with the prop on my CR 42. It looks like Revell got it wrong. The prop blades are the right length and turn counter clockwise when viewed from the front but they are the wrong shape and far too narrow!. In fact both aircraft seem to have used the same Fiat A 74 RC 38 engine - maybe with detail differences and the props appear identical. I happen to still have the engine nacelle from my old G50 complete with prop - problem solved as far as I am concerned! If I had got round to checking before, the refurb would have been finished a year ago.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

HI - just a note to say that the blades of Fiat-Hamilton prop used on the G.50 ( and CR.42) were light blue front with black backs. It adds an interesting touch to the model.
It's hard to see in period BW pics of the 50 of course, but if you google the CR-42, you will see the survivors in the museums feature this.
cheers

Jonners

[PeterB]

Thanks for that Jon.

 

Revell said grey both sides for the CR 42 and I think it looks silver in a walkround I have seen, whilst Airfix kit instructions plus several pics in mags suggest dural for G50 but your scheme sounds interesting so I will do a bit of digging.

 

Pete

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hi Pete. I did a double take too, but  this might help.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fiat_CR_42_Falco
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Italy-Air-Force/Fiat-CR-42-Falco/223258


https://www.stormomagazine.com/RegiaAeronauticaColorsinWWII_3a.htm
(scroll down to the almost bottom for the Propellor Blades section) Although to be fair it does state props post 1941 were black.

HTH

Jonners

[PeterB]

Hi Jon,

 

I have some pics of the one in Hendon somewhere, but the one on your link seems to have silver doped undersurfaces which I don't remember seeing before. As to the prop I thought it was "silver" but there does seem to be a hint of blue perhaps. Of course, as somebody is bound to point out you cannot trust the colours of most museum exhibits! Interestingly, Scalemates have a copy of the Sky Models sheet for the G50 which I never bought on on the front page is an aircraft in the same markings 352-1 as the Airfix kit, but probably not the exact same G50 -bis. Like the Revell CR 42 (and the Hendon one) it is one used during the Battle of Britian operating from Belgium, and this one has GM3 over Grigio Mimetico with both Bruno Mim and Verde Mim blotches but no Yellow cowling - think that was a theatre marking as with the Luftwaffe. I have also seen white cowlings, so will have to do a lot more digging.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[stevehnz]

I'm enjoying watching this come together,& the camo discussion. I'm ever mindful of the one I have one my shelf of shame waiting for me to put some camo on it & not knowing where to start.

Steve.

[PeterB]

Hi Steve,

 

Yes, this sort of discussion is one of the good things about the forum. I don't mind being told I am wrong providing it is supported  by a reasonable arguement and preferably with supporting evidence. What I don't like is when somebody jumps into the thread feet first with a "You are wrong, I am right, so there!" attitude but fortunately that is very rare these days - no doubt unintentional but it does come across as a bit aggressive. I can cope with it but I have seen it done to a new member of the Forum and probably a quite young modeller a year or so back and I fear it may have put him off. We "old lags", myself included, need to be a little careful about our wording at times - not everybody has been doing this as long as many of us.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited May 15, 2020 by PeterB

[PeterB]

Managed to get the first coat of Grigio Mimetico on - not as dark as it looks on the tin!

One thing I have noticed is that many Italian aircraft in the "desert" scheme carried the upper surface colour round and under the wing leading edge quite a way and some even had the undersurface of the front and rear fuselage in the upper colour too as I think I did with my Folgore - I will mask and paint this properly once the final coat of grey is on.

 

At least one RAF Hurricane unit adopted a similar idea as did some FAA planes attached to the Desert Air Force apparently - the so called "sand and spinach" scheme. Presumably it was intended to fool Italian AA gunners and perhaps pilots as well, giving a few more precious seconds before they opened fire. Some sources suggest they used captured Italian paints but it could equally be from Army stock I guess. and there is no real agreement on exactly what shades they used, with some illustrations showing the sand colour as base, some blue and some even "silver" - perhaps they used all three? I did one of my old Airfix Hurricanes in that scheme last year for a change, using I think GM4.

 

Still debating whether to go for the relatively large blotchy mottle or the streaks of green and red/brown.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited May 15, 2020 by PeterB

[modelling minion]

Nice progress Pete.

 

You are right about the RAF and FAA using the "sand and spinach" scheme and I believe you are right that it was meant to cause some confusion on the part of Italian gunners, you are also right about the controversy over what colours were used, best to not get involved and use whatever looks right to you.

[Graham Boak]

Sand and spinach was a description used during wartime and since to describe the standard RAF green and brown camouflage.  It has nothing to do with what is usually termed the "spaghetti" scheme, which was used on fighters for a while, except that some aircraft in the standard scheme carried it.  It makes the most sense as reducing their head-on silhouette as it was used not just in air-to-ground but in air-to-air, even by carrier-borne Fulmars.  The Italian link seems to have come from comparing it to the mottle on Italian aircraft - however as this wrapped around from above giving darker leading edges, this suggestion just doesn't hold water.  This scheme produces the exact opposite effect.  Some of the suggested colours have been pretty odd: the basic colour is clearly a lot lighter than both the Middle Stone and the underside blue.  However the actual colours have been identified, both from pilot accounts and records.  The basic colour was Aluminium.   (Shame: my favourite assumption was Sky Blue.)  The other colours used may have varied, but to me the two standard uppersurface colours appears the most likely.  Occam's Razor and all that.  Which may of course have varied anyway between RAF and FAA aircraft, and Hurricanes in Desert or Temperate schemes.  If the painters at the Alexandrian MU cared.

[Graham Boak]

Getting back to the subject, the CMPR colour chart can be found on the Stormo webpage, together with tables and descriptions of their use.

https://www.stormomagazine.com/Articles/coloricmpr_1.jpg

[PeterB]

Thanks Graham,

 

Probably meant "Spaghetti" but my memory is going - the joys of getting old!

 

Pete

[PeterB]

This is how I am thinking of painting my CR 42, though the sand (Giallo) colour will be lighter.

The aircraft is supposedly from 96^a Squadriglia, 9^o Gruppo, 4^o Stormo in around Autumn 1940 when it was based at El Adem, so just after Italy entered the war. I can do the unit markings from my Macchi 200 sheet together with the "Prancing Horse" insignia dating back to Francesco Barraca in WWI, and I have printed the white triangle with the "armoured and spurred leg" which reminds me of the Manx Trescillion, though of course that has 3 legs and is red. I am not sure what the origin of this is though it could be a play on the shape of Italy as seen on a map, or maybe some sort of family crest? If anybody knows what it represents I would be interested to know.

 

It clearly does not have the white fuselage band but it may have white under the upper wingtips - difficult to tell. The crest of the house of Savoy is at the top of the white cross as is sometimes the case, though in others it is at the centre. The G 50 will probably have a similar camo scheme.

 

Pete

 

PS I presume, probably incorrectly that the ^a and the ^o are Italian equivalents to the superscript  "st" and "th" - not sure what they would do with "nd" so maybe I am indeed wrong?

Edited May 16, 2020 by PeterB

[modelling minion]

Great scheme Pete, you are going to have one very nice looking CR-42.

[PeterB]

Hi,

 

From what I have read, when Italy declared war in June 1940 9^o Gruppo initially were tasked with defending the border with Yugoslavia, but at the start of July moved to Sicily to join in the attack on Malta, In the meantime the CR 42 units in Africa were in trouble - relatively few were shot down, but quite a few were lost in crashes. However the main problem was that the lack of sand filters meant that their engines were wearing out and  needeed replacing every 20-30 hours. This resulted in a drastic drop in servicable planes, so after only a few days in Sicily,  9^o Gruppo moved to Libya to where they stayed until around December before being pulled back to Italy in a somewhat reduced state.

 

Apparently their constant speed props made them a bit faster than the Gladiators they were up against initially and gave them a much better rate of climb, but the Glads had more guns and were more manoeuvrable. Once Hurricanes began to arrive the Falco's were in some trouble, providing the Hurri's used their speed and armament and did not try to get into a turning contest, though they did apparently find it hard to hold the Fiats in their sights. Still, that was the reasoning behind the RAF going for an 8 gun armament - a short burst on target could do a lot of damage.

 

By 1941 the G 50 and the MC 200 began to replace the Falco, though they lingered on for some time. Some sources refer to the CR 42 as the last and the best of the biplane fighters, but that clearly is a matter of opinion and others would award that title to the Gladiator I imagine..

 

Cheers

 

Pete