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Best RLM 02?


Graham Boak

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In my opinion, based on comments from Nick Millman and others not to mention eyeballing of colour photos, all my existing tins of paint for 02 are too dark.  02 appears to have been a paler yellower colour.  I have Xtracolour, White Ensign Colourcoats, Precision Paints and Humbrol.  Looking at Sovereign Colourcoats on the website chart, it seems similar to the others.  The same applies to the similar colour RLM 63.  Is this just an extreme case of the colour appearing much different when lightly sprayed than it does on the colour chart(s) these ranges are presumably based on?  (I have Reis, Pentland, Ullmann and Merrick.)  Is there another paint range with a lighter variant?  or do I just have to stir lots of white (and maybe a touch of yellow) into a conveniently half-empty tin?  (Plenty spare, as you can see.)

 

I agree that it hardly matters when used for interiors, but when used on trainers supposedly in overall 02 (or 63) then these dark shades just look out of place.

 

No, this is not a thread for a discussion of the light grey supposed  63 Hellgrau as opposed to the official variant that is much less of a plain grey.  I think I've got a reasonable handle on that.

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I do not know which is the best, but I would say that for me the relatively new or recent Humbrol 240 (oil) is enough good for me. It is fairly light :)

35471241764_77070cf9e6_b.jpg&key=bd00d71

Cheers

J-W

 

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Hello Graham & J-W,

 

I have been using the Humbrol RLM 02 as well. For my next Luftwaffe aircraft build I will use Monogram paint chips as reference and mix a paint matching that.

 

Here are a couple of close-up photos of a bf-109 F that was shot down over Lapland. The wreckage was removed from the crash site some years ago by the Air Force Museum staff and here it was readied for display. This hole is located on the Port wing, just behind the MLG bay. Interior paint looks like RLM 02 but it is lighter and more greyish than that shown in Ullmann's colour chart or current RAL K5 chart (where RLM 63 still is).

 

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And tail wheel bay

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Cheers,

Antti

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Eyeballed against the colour charts in Merrick's Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Vol.2, Humbrol 240 as suggested above & Vallejo 70886 make very acceptable RLM02 equivalents, to my eye anyway.

Steve.

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1 hour ago, stevehnz said:

Eyeballed against the colour charts in Merrick's Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Vol.2, Humbrol 240 as suggested above & Vallejo 70886 make very acceptable RLM02 equivalents, to my eye anyway.

Steve.

  

On 14/11/2015 at 11:42, Nick Millman said:

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2010/12/colour-of-rlm-02-grau-grey.html

and

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2011/03/notice-of-update_10.html

Although I didn't measure it the Xtracolor seems a reasonable representation on the greyish side but going by the painted chip in their fan deck the Vallejo Model Color 886 also looks ok. The Vallejo Model Air 71.044 looks a little too greenish.

As with the Japanese Zero colour it is the amber or brownish undertone that seems to get missed.

Nick

PS I have to admit I'm getting chary about posting such measured paint colour data here as there seems to be a general preference for the "evidence" of colour photos and anything I do post is pretty much disregarded when the same colour debates come up over and over and over and over again.

  

On 07/01/2011 at 10:50, Mike G said:

You won't go far wrong with Revell 45 (Light Olive). According to my references it's pretty much spot on for Grau 02, cheap and relatively easy to find. Revell have a good range, their paints brush and spray well and is probably my favourite brand at the moment.

Hope this helps

 

On 07/01/2011 at 10:59, Nick Millman said:

Good call. Humbrol (sic) Revell 45 is matched to RAL 7003 Moosgrau (Moss Grey) which is closest to 5 out of 6 samples of RLM 02 measured. Probably easier to use for brush painting than Xtracolor too.

 

 

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Agree with the above about Vallejo Model Air 71,044 being a bit too greenish. The photo is actually too green though there is a definite green tinge to it

 

img_0001-jpg.577081

 

I have since found something that is a little closer from VMA, 71.321

 

41pSJHWElML._AC_SY400_.jpg

 

Hoping to pick up some tomorrow

Edited by fubar57
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I agree that Vallejo's is to green, that said I can say that WE Color Coats, both Mr.Hobby and Gunze, as well as Life Color are all so close to one another that you could use all 4 on the same model and not notice any difference and match well with Merrick's and Eagle editions chips, at least all mine do any way.

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Yes, I know about the origin of Sovereign Colour coats, and normally would not wish for a better match.  From the screen, the new Colourcoats does not differ significantly from the WEM one, which also is a good match for the chips.  As is Humbrol 240, which I eventually found last night.

 

However as Nick says, quoted above, these all miss the yellowish tinge seen in practice and in colour photos such as those of Bf110s over the Med.  These were ascribed to thinly sprayed 02.  I haven't thinly sprayed any, but have thinly brushed some without getting this effect.  And they are all far too dark for the tone for the appearance in photos on the trainers.

 

Thanks for all the help.  I can't get Revell enamels, normally I can get Aqua but not until Hobbycraft opens.

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No, Jamie,, although I did check against the screen which did seem to be a reasonable guide to just where your colour was "sitting" against my other choices and the various chips.  It hadn't actually occurred to me that redoing all your range to M&K would make any significant differences, and with almost complete ranges of Xtracolour, WEM and PP to choose from, I didn't anticipate any need for more Luftwaffe tins of paint.  This was influenced by a lack of subjects in my immediate plans. as opposed to stocks laid aside...  It is not as though all the colours in the above ranges were bad matches anyway, though as they covered the range of 81/82/83 controversies they do at least offer a wide range of alternatives for late war colours.  Were more needed (little joke).

 

So would you suggest that some of your range do show significant differences from WEM?  And if so, which?  I've no objection, as you can gather, from buying new stock if it shows some significant change from the earlier.  (I do have an order in with you for your RNZAF colours, awaiting relaxation.)   Perhaps you could adopt an N prefix similarly to your RN paints?  At the moment, I don't see that the 02 does. 

 

I increasingly feel that this is either some photographic effect, or a rapid fading as with its close predecessor 63, or an extreme effect of "scale colour", or a mix of all three.  As far as the lighter trainers go, the original paint could well be 63 or even earlier civilian light greys.  The specific model is the RS Arado 74, for which civilian colours would be wrong, but "from the tins" 02 just appears far too dark.  Ah well, an interesting exercise in paint stripper.

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My weapon of choice used to be Model Master 02 and I did manage to stock up with a couple of jars before they stopped making the stuff. I have tested the latest Humbrol and also Mr Color and they are all near enough for government work. Sovereign paint is a little harder to get here on the West coast of oz but I have started to build up my stock to replace the MM colours I used to use, ordering from Creative Models on the East coast.

TRF

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I still have a bottle of the old Aeromaster Warbird Colours RLM 02 which does, to my eye, have the tone you seek. I appreciate that Aeromaster paint being (tragically) long OOP this isn't particularly helpful news but the reason I bring it up is they always used to say that the Aeromaster paints had some lightening for scale effect, compared to the straight PollyScale colours made alongside them.  I really liked that lighter, yellower look for 02.

 

(Whatever their motives I found the paints generally excellent and wish I could still get them)

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17 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

In my opinion, based on comments from Nick Millman and others not to mention eyeballing of colour photos, all my existing tins of paint for 02 are too dark.  02 appears to have been a paler yellower colour.  ...

Nowadays nobody gets shot for a wrong RLM color mix (anymore) (maybe even "sadly") ... so I'd just add a little white or maybe even yellow to my tin (yes, not into the tin, I'll mix it in a seperate container) of "supposed" RLM 02 until it matches my idea or perception of RLM 02 in the specific case/plane.

 

Nothing is wrong with matching the colors to the (supposed) original samples as good as possible in the first place (yes, I'm obsessed with it too! And I admire Jamie's efforts!), but when looking at military vehicles, tanks, planes, ships in real life, we will observe variations. You might claim, "yes, nowadays, because the EU prohibits the use of all the good stuff!", or "yes, because nowadays nobody fears the SS coming along and shooting the painter oder paint maker!", but I fear in the olden days they had less precise instruments to match the colors at the production line - and then there was dirt (toning down) and UV light (bleaching, well not ze German pigments!) and maybe yellowing or chalking of the lacquer base.

 

I grew up with Humbrol Authentics RLM 02 "HG 6", so it looks "right", but it looks strange (wrong) on an entire plane.

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Given you cannot even go to the DIY shop in 2020 and get two tins of a paint colour mixed by computer from different batches (exactly) the same, I would not get too hung up as I'm sure that RLM02 like all paints differed significantly from different plants across the whole of Europe 80 years ago and with varying degrees of QC in the base materials used . Personally, for my 1/48 and 1/32 modelling, I like Mr Colour 02 lightened with about 20% of either white or (to vary panels if doing a large expanse) about the same ratio adding Lt Ghost Grey.

 

Used straight from the tin/bottle, many (especially Tamiya's) look way too dark and green in tone to my casual eye.

 

Gary 

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2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

No, Jamie,, although I did check against the screen which did seem to be a reasonable guide to just where your colour was "sitting" against my other choices and the various chips.  It hadn't actually occurred to me that redoing all your range to M&K would make any significant differences, and with almost complete ranges of Xtracolour, WEM and PP to choose from, I didn't anticipate any need for more Luftwaffe tins of paint.  This was influenced by a lack of subjects in my immediate plans. as opposed to stocks laid aside...  It is not as though all the colours in the above ranges were bad matches anyway, though as they covered the range of 81/82/83 controversies they do at least offer a wide range of alternatives for late war colours.  Were more needed (little joke).

 

So would you suggest that some of your range do show significant differences from WEM?  And if so, which?  I've no objection, as you can gather, from buying new stock if it shows some significant change from the earlier.  (I do have an order in with you for your RNZAF colours, awaiting relaxation.)   Perhaps you could adopt an N prefix similarly to your RN paints?  At the moment, I don't see that the 02 does. 

 

I increasingly feel that this is either some photographic effect, or a rapid fading as with its close predecessor 63, or an extreme effect of "scale colour", or a mix of all three.  As far as the lighter trainers go, the original paint could well be 63 or even earlier civilian light greys.  The specific model is the RS Arado 74, for which civilian colours would be wrong, but "from the tins" 02 just appears far too dark.  Ah well, an interesting exercise in paint stripper.

 

Hi Graham,

 

I may have confused there - the WEM range of Luftwaffe paints (the ACLW codes) were all matched to Merrick and Kiroff before we acquired them. All I did was add the lighter RLM79...

 

ACJ16 is our Nick Millman-revised Mitsubishi ash-grey for early Zeros. The old one was a bit dark and a bit saturated. Our new one guided by Nick is lighter and greyer. Since Nick compared the Zeke paint to the character of RLM02 I thought it an interesting comparison here:

 

Merrick & Kiroff RLM02 ACLW12jpg_180x.jpg?v=1579883231 ACJ16rgbNEW_180x.jpg?v=1579883209 ACJ16 Mitsubishi Zero Grey-Green

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Yes, and this is another colour that does fade quite rapidly to a light grey.  However this was also true of the similar colour RLM 63.  Whereas I do know that the Japanese obtained paint technology from the Germans, I don't know whether this means that used for the 60-series paints or the later technology used for the 70-series paints,  at the time 02 was adopted as an external colour where 63 had been used.  Evidence that O2 faced rapidly in service would perhaps square this circle, but I don't recall this bring mentioned.

 

Re HG6.  The original set of Humbrol Authentic German colours were a superb match.  When they were released as single tins the colours had changed dramatically for the worse, especially the light ones.  I recall the 76 as bring particularly bad.  I recall that I didn't like the new 02 either, but not what the original was like.

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If one remeber the Huma kits colour of plastic - if we are trying to guess what exactly hue it should be, I think they were trying to provide RLM-02 for it...

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Now that @Nick Millman no longer visits this forum, does anyone know for certain precisely what sample of RLM02 he used to unfavourably compare all of the above model paints?

 

As many know, I am not in the habit of being wrong so if Jürgen Kiroff and indeed everyone else have apparently botched their RLM02 chips and someone like Nick apparently knows better, how do I a) verify that the majority of Luftwaffe paint scholars have indeed all made a common mistake and then b) access this source myself?

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For comparison, here is a photo of freshly stirred jars of Mr Color RLM 02, (C60), AK Real Color RLM 02-1938, (RC265) and AK Real Color RLM 02-1941, (RC266). Please note, the caps are transposed in the photograph. The first 2 are very similar but the third one is way darker and more olive. I'm no an expert but have not heard of the colour changing during the war. Apparently, Jurgen Kiroff contributed to the formulation of the colours but have not seen any feedback regarding the finished product.

 

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And here is my current project which features the Mr Color version mottled over a black base with some additional mottling of the two AK colours for a little variation. Thin layers of Mr Color were then sprayed over until I was happy with the shade:

 

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To my untrained eye, Mr Color looks the better shade.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I use the Hikoki and Monogram Guide for reference in my colors. The two match. Even though the Hikoki looks a bit darker, that is because it is gloss and the Monogram is mat. If a little clear coat gloss is applied over the Monogram chip, the two match.  So match whatever paint you use to the chips. The monogram Guide is hard to find nowadays and when you can find one they are quite expensive (RLM 04 and RLM 27 are reversed in this reference) The Hikoki color chips are available from the UK but a bit pricy also. But very well worth it. I highly recommend in the investment if you build Luftwaffe aircraft. http://www.crecy.co.uk/luftwaffe-colours-1935-1945-paint-chip-chart  There is quite a bit of good information out of the Czech Republic, due to the fact that many Luftwaffe aircraft were built there during the war and than continued to be built there after the war with a lot of wartime paint being used up on the after war subjects. I Find "Peewit" paints to be a very well researched choice. Also "AKAN" I find to be quite reliable. Even though they are impossible to find here in the US, I go out of my way to get them from Europe. That is for those of us that use Acrylic paint. Only Polly-S /Polly Scale were any good before these. I find the Spanish made paints to be very unreliable and Tamiya doubly so. The new Model master paints are all over the board.

Edited by Otakar
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