Grand Slam Lancaster Colours

[JOCKNEY]

Can I please ask for your assistance 

 

I am currently building the Airfix Lancaster B1 Special with the Grand Slam Bomb,  build thread here

 

 

There appears to be a variety of opinions over how these were painted, where the boundary between camouflage and underneath colour was, what colour it was painted underneath etc.

 

Here is the box art that Airfix would have you follow

 

 

Yet heres is a picture on Wikipedia, all be it a different aircraft, spot the difference 

 

 

I want to build YZ J from March 1945, 617 squadron RAF Woodhall Spa.

 

All help, opinions greatly appreciated 

 

Many thanks Pat

 

[modelldoc]

So had decide for the "box version" it can be found also in some books as a drawing.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/16238651755/in/photolist-ri9JnR-V6njJG-scEYwU-r5SAzH-qJXkqp-qJT3EW-qsoPAj-qso5c3-gDBxAi-98cKjF

 

modelldoc

 

[Tokyo Raider]

I just got a Tamiya 1/48th Lancaster... with Grand Slam...  They have a Grand Slam colorscheme in the kit with a Med Sea Grey underside...  Just like your box art...  I did not check the decals yet...  to see if its same as your Box...  I can do that later today if noone already knows...

[Rafwaffe]

I am building PD117 for the same group build. Everything I’ve read as preparation for the build (apart from the light green and light earth debate) has lead me to the Dark Earth, Dark Green uppers over Medium Sea Grey colour scheme for the aircraft painted in the day scheme.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Rafwaffe

[RJP]

If you can find it, Scale Models ran an article in January 1976 by C Rupert Moore who visited 617 Squadron in June 1946 as they were handing their equipment off to 15 Squadron.  He was researching the scheme for a painting of the dropping of a Grand Slam, to be reproduced as the frontispiece of Aircraft of the Fighting Powers volume VII.  He discussed in detail the evolution of the scheme and markings of the Grand Slam machines.  He examined PD121 YZ-Z and made colour comparisons to his set of field cards, matched to official MAP colour standards issued in August 1944.  He found Light Earth and Light Green had replaced the more usual Dark Earth and Dark Green on the upper surfaces.  More interestingly, Ocean Grey was used for the undersides.

 

The operational schemes of the Grand Slam carriers has been discussed from time to time, sometimes heatedly.  All too often latter day experts of the self-designated kind are most vociferous in their attempts to impose their alternate facts.  Rupert Moore was an experienced and careful observer who took notes.  I know whose opinions I trust.

 

[Graham Boak]

I agree with RJP - Moore is a most reliable source.  However the key date is June 1946.   Paul Lucas has taken the matter further,  published what he found in some edition (sorry) of Model Aircraft Monthly,  and this scheme was adopted for post-war trials.  As shown in the photo of one being dropped, the wartime scheme was standard,   Moores's observations do not contradict this.  Unless of course you can find documentary evidence otherwise, but I fear visits to the NA are not on for you - even were they open at the moment!

 

Talking of C, Rupert Moore, at some stage (in the 1970s?) his notes were put on display in the RAF Museum, and his comments on the Ju388 appeared in a model magazine.  I thought (was quite definite) that it was Scale Models but have been unable to track this down despite several searches.  It would be very interesting to see how they fitted to modern knowledge of late-war Luftwaffe colours that was not available to him.  As I recall, he restricted himself to a description of the colours rather than making any attempt at identifying them.  Has anyone any knowledge of were these comments were published?

[EwenS]

I've just posted this on the other thread running on this subject.

 

"I went back to the library and "A Hell of a Bomb" about Barnes Wallis' bombs and the dropping thereof (also republished under another title. Chapter 12 describes the mods to the production line B1 Specials and has this to say about the paint job.

 

"To render the BI Special a little less conspicuous, 5 Group requested a day camouflage scheme, which was applied to later aircraft. This meant replacing the Night undersurfaces with a very pale green tone known as Sky, while retaining the standard upper finish of Dark Green and Dark Earth. However, someone slipped up, so PB995, the A&AEE trials aircraft, and the first few BI Specials issued to 617 arrived wearing their customary black coats."

 

There were 32 BI Specials delivered in Feb / Mar 1945. PB995-998 and PD112-139. 24 of these were used on operations by 617 before the war ended.

 

There is a photo in the book to confirm PB995 with Night undersides. Only 2 aircraft wore the letter C. PD115 but the this looks like a misprint to me as it shows up as K in raids before and after the one when it is listed as C. The second aircraft is the second production airframe PB996. The next two off the production line were PB997 being E and PB998 being D. So Jockneys picture above looks to me like PB996/C.

 

So three questions:

1. At which airframe did the colour scheme change?

2. What was the underside colour? Sky as in the book or medium sea grey as on the artwork or something else as noted in the other thread

3. Was there a further change post-war?

 

I see that there is another thread running on this so I'll post this there as well."

 

PD121 shows up on 617 operations as S not Z. But then we have a bit of confusion because PD112 switches back and forth between ops as S to Z to S to Z to S again! So it seems that there are misprints somewhere.

Edited April 25, 2020 by EwenS

[Graham Boak]

Excellent  ask and ye shall receive!  Not usually quite so immediately.  If it was known about the earlier use of day colours it explains why CRM saw no need to mention them as being any different from what he saw.  The thought may not have occurred to him.

 

(now about that Ju388 piece...  PM if you wish to avoid distracting from this thread.)

[Dave Swindell]

49 minutes ago, RJP said:

If you can find it, Scale Models ran an article in January 1976 by C Rupert Moore who visited 617 Squadron in June 1946 as they were handing their equipment off to 15 Squadron.  He was researching the scheme for a painting of the dropping of a Grand Slam, to be reproduced as the frontispiece of Aircraft of the Fighting Powers volume VII.  He discussed in detail the evolution of the scheme and markings of the Grand Slam machines.  He examined PD121 YZ-Z and made colour comparisons to his set of field cards, matched to official MAP colour standards issued in August 1944.  He found Light Earth and Light Green had replaced the more usual Dark Earth and Dark Green on the upper surfaces.  More interestingly, Ocean Grey was used for the undersides.

 

The operational schemes of the Grand Slam carriers has been discussed from time to time, sometimes heatedly.  All too often latter day experts of the self-designated kind are most vociferous in their attempts to impose their alternate facts.  Rupert Moore was an experienced and careful observer who took notes.  I know whose opinions I trust.

 

Whilst this is good first hand reporting from what would appear to be a reliable source, the late date and the unusual scheme would indicate this is one of the trials schemes.

 

617 sqn operated B1 Specials in standard uppersurface camouflage (ie Dark Green/Dark Earth) with a low demarkation and light undersurfaces, which have been quoted as either Sky or Medium Sea Grey, in the closing stages of the war.

The IWM photo of 2 of them together with a standard B1 in standard bomber command colours clearly shows the upper surface colours to be the same, and not the Light Earth/Light Green combination observed by C Rupert Moore.

From @EwenS post above it would appear that the undersurface coulour should be Sky, and from the photo's it would appear likely that the PB series specials were delivered in standard bomber command scheme, and the PD series were delivered in the day camouflage scheme.

 

Official photograph. © IWM (MH 30796)

IWM Non Commercial License

Two Avro Lancaster B Mark 1 (Specials), PD118 'YZ-M', PD129 'YZ-O', and a B Mark 1, NG489 'KC-M', all of No. 617 Squadron, Royal Air Force, based at Woodhall Spa, flying in 'vic' formation, 8 May 1945. (Port threequarter rear views).

 

[EwenS]

Great except the photo doesn't tie up with the description. Check the aircraft code letters.

 

From my information YZ-J should be PD119 and YZ-B should be PD114

 

Note also the different tail colours on the 2 B & J. Evidence of repainting?

Edited April 25, 2020 by EwenS

[cngaero]

8 minutes ago, EwenS said:

Note also the different tail colours on the 2 B & J. Evidence of repainting?

Could be a replacement fin after either battle damage or fatigue. 

[Tokyo Raider]

Here is the Box Art and scheme from the Tamiya 1/48 Grand Slam Kit...  Its the same aircraft as your kit!

 

I see now the black tail.  I didnt notice that before, but Tamiya shows it.  Also overpainted side windows...

Edited April 25, 2020 by Tokyo Raider

[Seahawk]

Here is one of the best earlier threads re GRAND SLAM Lanc colours.  I quote, and muse upon, a lot of Moore's findings as recorded in the Scale Models article in posts 12 and 65.  It really does come down to faith: in what/whom do you put your trust: what the colours ought to be as far as we can discern from the available documents from the time combined with the culture of rigid adherence to laid-down standards or the testimony of a skilled and respected artist armed with painted MAP paint samples visiting the aircraft in person with the explicit aim of getting the colours right for a painting he had been commissioned to do.  I'm still on the fence, I'm afraid.  Elsewhere in the thread people contribute many of the available photos of GRAND SLAM Lancasters.

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234917903-gram-slam-lancaster/

 

As regards @EwenS's query about when the changeover from night bomber to day bomber scheme occurs, it is between PD113 and PD114.  Photos of YZ-T in standard night bomber scheme on pages 259 and 262 of Ward's Dambuster, photos of YZ-B in day bomber colours on p.264 of Ward's Dambuster and p.102 of Lancaster At War 2.  Textual evidence from a range of sources correlates those codes to PD113 and PD114 respectively.

 

As regards windows, I stand to be corrected but I would have expected that by the PB and PD series the windows would have been deleted rather than painted over.  But away from my references and can't check from my GRAND SLAM Lanc photos.

[Work In Progress]

23 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

As regards windows, I stand to be corrected but I would have expected that by the PB and PD series the windows would have been deleted rather than painted over. 

I agree with that, however I imagin Tamiya's artist was finessing it a bit given that the kit comes with windows, for reasons of commonality with the other releases of the kit, so painted-over windows is what's inevitably in the instructions (given that it is taboo for kit instructions to mention filler).

[Jonny]

FWIW (not much, I grant you), I seem to remember reading that aircraft ‘Z’ had the tail plane marking painted in reverse, looking like ‘S’. Or was it the other way round?
 

I’ve an interest in this, what with an ancient Airfix Grand Slam Lancaster on the shelf-of-doom.  
 

Jonny

[Dave Swindell]

4 hours ago, EwenS said:

Great except the photo doesn't tie up with the description. Check the aircraft code letters.

 

From my information YZ-J should be PD119 and YZ-B should be PD114

 

Note also the different tail colours on the 2 B & J. Evidence of repainting?

Yes. this has been ponted out in another thread, I copied the caption direct from the IWM site without checking it. I suspect that it is a caption belonging to another similar photo

3 hours ago, cngaero said:

Could be a replacement fin after either battle damage or fatigue. 

I'd concur with that, the port fin/rudder has been replaced from a night bomber scheme airframe.

[Ossington 2]

https://imgur.com/r7dq2Li

 

Just to confirm the lack of windows...

[Seahawk]

I seem to recall, probably from Ward's Dambuster, that the outer faces of the fin and rudder of YZ-J were as a trial briefly painted in a high-vis colour (white?) to aid station-keeping but this proved very unpopular and the markings were painted out.   Possibly with Black because they didn't have any Light Earth and Light Green in the stores, he says mischievously and not wholly seriously.

[JOCKNEY]

Decision time, as i have been fortunate enough to have been provided with a period photo of my actual aircraft ( thanks again @Dave Swindell) i will paint the port rudder black inside and out the other camo.

Yes its going to look a little strange but its factual for this particular aircraft.

 

Thanks again for all the comments and information. 

 

cheers Pat 

[KRK4m]

22 hours ago, EwenS said:

Note also the different tail colours on the 2 B & J. Evidence of repainting?

I'll say more: what's going on with the forward part of YZ@J starboard fin inner side?

YZ@B has Dark Earth and Dark Green there and the aft part of YZ@J looks the same.

But forward part is very much lighter - Light Earth plus Light Green overpainting or just some light reflex (e.g. caused by the white inner part of port fin) ?

Cheers

Michael

[Seahawk]

20 hours ago, KRK4m said:

I'll say more: what's going on with the forward part of YZ@J starboard fin inner side?

YZ@B has Dark Earth and Dark Green there and the aft part of YZ@J looks the same.

But forward part is very much lighter - Light Earth plus Light Green overpainting or just some light reflex (e.g. caused by the white inner part of port fin) ?

Cheers

Michael

I noticed that as well but simply have no answer to your question.  I doubt that it was reflection from a White inner port fin because (ISTR) only the outer faces (of both fins and rudders) were painted white in the first place - and quickly painted out again in black.