Spitfire VII prototype AB540 - colours stated PRU Blue over Deep Sky?

[Troy Smith]

while looking for Spitfire in High Altitude scheme,  for the PR.X thread,  I ran across this image

note comment from the Spitfire production site

 

AB450 VII 3284 EA M45 FF 22-8-42 CRD R-R Contract Cv proto FVII M61 8-42 AAEE for trials R-RH 10-9-42 prop reduction gear change supercharger mods RAF Special Flt Northolt 16-9-42 original day ftr camouflage painted over PR blue upper/deep sky (No.2 pattern) under surfaces AAEE 10-42 carbon monoxide cockpit contam trials cool trials with new reduction gear R-R fitt of tail parachute and fin guard 124S 25-1-43 AAEE 13-2-43 CE 14-6-44

 

One other detail this has an angled join/firewall between engine and fuel tank usually associated with the later 2 stage Griffons, but also with the initial Spitfire Mk.III as well.

 

Now, the above does look like the High Altitude Scheme, most often seen on Spitfire VII's,  so perhaps the detail are a mistake,  but a Spitfire in PRU Blue and Deep Sky would be a very interesting scheme...  

 

I'll put in a @gingerbob  in case he can add more...

 

Now where did I put my Morgan and Shacklady.....

 

Cheers

T

 

PS Edit.  Morgan and Shacklady say Med Sea Grey over PRU blue.... does not have the image above though, or mention of the angled firewall. 

[Graham Boak]

I've seen this combination mentioned as an early version of the HAF Scheme, but this the first actual direct link to its use that I've seen.  Frankly, I think this looks too light to be fresh PRUB so I have my doubts renewed.

 

As this was converted from a Mk.V I suspect we are seeing another RR special as far as the nose panels are concerned.  

[gingerbob]

I think the top is still Medium Sea Grey, not PRU Blue, but I'd have to go digging- p'raps later.  (Deep Sky was suggested as the underside colour for high altitude fighters, and I've never run across any explanation of why it then went to PRU Blue- or if I have, I failed to remember.)

 

The first two or three production VIIs had the angled firewall, too.

Edited April 26, 2020 by gingerbob

[Magpie22]

Don't try to judge the shade of blue from a B/W print.

 

I believe that this shot was probably taken using panchromatic film with a red/yellow filter on the lense. The use of a red/yellow filter was very popular with photographers, (particularly professionals), using b/w film, both orthochromatic and panchromatic. It was used so that blues, specifically the sky background, reproduced as a darker shade on the print, got away from that washed out appearance, and gave a good contrast with the white/grey of clouds.  Note how 'black' the blue of the roundels and fin flash appear on this print. If a filter had not been used, the blue tone of the roundels would still have reproduced as a dark tone, but not as 'black' as in this print.

 

If I am correct in my assumption re film/filter combination, the PRU Blue would also appear much darker than it would if the pic had been taken without a R/Y filter. I have often seen the same mistake made when some interpret the under surface colour of desert Kittyhaks as Mediterannean Blue, or some such, rather than Azure Blue.

 

Trying to interpret shades of blue from a b/w print is a mug's game. Don't rely on the subjective information transmitted to your brain by your eye, it is not accurate when viewing b/w prints. As has been said before, you need to understand the chemistry of b/w films and the effect of different lens filters on them, to try and come to some small understanding of what you are looking at.

 

In this case my vote is for Medium Sea Grey over PRU Blue. That's what the orders required and, until documentation is produced to prove otherwise, I believe that is far more significant evidence than trying to interpret prints maded from b/w film.

 

Peter M

Edited April 25, 2020 by Magpie22
spelling

[Tinners]

I'm no expert, but quick 5 minute Photoshop suggests PRU blue/Deep Sky is plausible. 

spifire_pru by DaTinz, on Flickr

I'm no expert at colouring images or serious image manipulation, and obviously the filters change the tonal values for greater contrast, but it looks reasonable.

 

[Graham Boak]

That requires a distinctly pale interpretation of PRUBlue, which is unconvincing on a fresh prototype. 

 

PS.  Could RR have painted it in the HAF Scheme because of a lack of knowledge of PRU practice?  This seems odd to us, but secrecy ruled  during the war.  We know much more of what was going on in the wider world than any employee would, outside his box.

 

PPS.  Quantum time.  The smallest unit of time is that taken for a colourised photo to be taken out of context and passed into use as an original.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Graham Boak

[occa]

The undersides are almost as dark as the roundel, looks like deep sky indeed.

The upper sides I don't know ....

[gingerbob]

Troy, I just noticed that you'd transposed digits on the thread title serial.

 

OK, from a file concerning tests of undersurface camouflage for high altitude aircraft:

27 August '41 RAE to RD Mat:  ...enclose chip of colour we recommend for the camouflage of undersurfaces of high altitude aircraft, based on the results of tests made at Boscombe Down.  The name of "Deep Sky" is suggested for the new colour.  As recommended by Boscombe Down, the finish is more matte than Type S finish, to obviate the "sun glint" observed on the fuselage at high altitudes.  [sample called "PRU Special Blue DTD 63A";  Another memo says: Ref No DTD308: 33B/266-7-8; DTD314: 33B/290-1-2]

 

Note that the trial summary also stressed the fact that the white in the insignia really stood out.

 

In January '42 RD Mat indicated that "no change from [Deep Sky] is proposed", but discussion of topside colour was still happening, and his suggestion was that Ocean Grey, "selected a short time ago by the service as being the best colour match on the  top sides of high altitude aircraft" should be considered.

 

This is quite a while before the high-altitude fighter scheme appeared on Spitfire VIIs, etc, but AB450 was flying in the summer of '42 (I found some feedback from Quill on the aircraft, but alas he didn't mention the paint job!).  There's also this: (I believe from another file)

 

RTO DH to RAE 11/11/42

Mosquito High Altitude Fighter Camo

            ...confirming today's telephone with Hughes, Ramsbottom and Jones, it is understood that you are in a position to supply a total of 60 gals of "Deep Sky" 'S' type paint for camo of above aircraft.

 

In the earlier discussion there was also mention that the PRU was happy with their colour for the altitudes they were then flying (20,000 to 32,000), but that memo could be interpreted to mean that they might have had reason to try out the other scheme later.  See, that's the problem with this sort of research- you see what they're thinking, but you don't always see "OK, this is what actually ended up happening."

 

And now, time to go tend to horses.

 

bob

 

Edit:

A couple more clues:

124 Squadron did a trial of aircraft spotting at high altitude on 7/8 April '43.  The report says: "The machines used in both trials were camouflaged grey on the upper surfaces and PRU blue on the underparts in order to make the test as difficult as possible."  [Note that 124 Sqn had absorbed the Northolt Flight in January, so probably had some "non-standard" aircraft.

 

8 June '43 Vickers submitted a charge to MAP "in satisfaction of applying a special camouflage scheme to F.VII EN285".  This one flew 19 December '42, and went to the Northolt Flight and subsequently 124 Sqn.  I don't know when the actual painting was done.

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by gingerbob

[Graham Boak]

Given that this is supposed to be the prototype, we are faced with the conundrum that the initial batch of Mk.VIIs, with the original rudder, were delivered in standard Day Fighter. Or at least all the photos I've seen show this.  Slightly odd if the High Altitude Fighter Scheme was already around.

 

[gingerbob]

Well, there was experimentation going on, with the High Altitude Flight ["Special Flight Northolt"], etc.  3501 Service Unit also received two Spitfire IXs "with special reduction gear" for repainting: "All old camouflage to be removed and special PRU covering applied."  They came to the SU in late August '42, and were delivered in early September.  According to the old Ducimus books the scheme "went public" around June '43.  I haven't really tried to track down when Mk.VIIs began to be delivered in the new scheme.  It is possible that I have some notes from the abovementioned Flight that would give us a hint, if I can find them.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by gingerbob

[Nobby Clarke]

Page 89 of Dr. Alfred Price's Osprey Aircraft of the Aces No. 5 book "Late Mark Spitfire Aces 1942-45" from 1995 describes Spitfire F VII MD188/PB of Wg Cdr Peter Brother, OC Culmhead Wing, June 1944 as "Wearing a two-letter code as well as the standard RAF high altitude fighter scheme of period - PR Blue upper surfaces and Deep Sky, Type S undersurfaces - this aircraft was one of the last F VIIs built."

I remain confused since the Air Ministry specified Day Fighters (high flying) to be camouflaged with MSG upper surfaces and PR blue under surfaces in Air Publication 2656A Vol 1 Sect 6 issued with A.L. No. 8 in October 1944 (ref. RAF Museum book British Aviation Colours of World War Two).

[Graham Boak]

As discussed above, there has been some mention of an early HA scheme of PRU Blue uppersurfaces and Deep Sky underneath but not any direct evidence of its use in service that I know of.  It would be very surprising if it survived into squadron use as late as this, but it would take a reference earlier than October 1944 to confirm that.  It was at about this time (June) that the aircraft were repainted to Day Fighter Scheme because of the squadron's conventional role.

[Shark444]

I tend to agree with @Magpie22 that trying to determine colour from a b/w photo (especially one of the one-off weirdo schemes from WWII) is likely to be an exercise in futility without having a documented Air Ministry artifact specifically referencing the aircraft in the photo.

 

It’s likely lurking out there someplace, and someone on the forum will likely find it, but this could be a question for the ages and you might have to make an executive decision and just go for it.  Without the evidence, who could challenge you?  😜 

 

p.s.  speaking of PRU-ish schemes, has anyone done a Spit in the high-altitude haze pink scheme?