New H+S, new paint, new flow improver and still clogging?

[Doggy]

So a few weeks ago I managed to get a new H+S silverline.

I also bought Vallejo model air RLM colours and almost immediately I had clogging issues.

So after doing some research I bought Vallejo flow improver and air brush thinners.

 

Tonight I tried everything out and it's still clogging after a second or so.

 

Eventually I tried 10 drops of paint, 2 drops of thinners and 2 drops of flow improvers and it still clogged.

 

I then gave up and went back to my old sparmax to finish painting the model, again 10 drops of paint but only 2 drops of flow improvers. 

The Sparmax ran ok but you could hear it struggling as it started to clog.

The HS will run fresh water no problem and it runs Tamita ok although it's been a while since I used it.

 

What else can I try? Would a 0.4 needle help?

Higher pressure? I run about 20 psi.

 

I can't understand how a Spanish paint dries out so quickly in cold Glasgow.

 

Thanks.

[Dads203]

Probably the paint type, Vallejo is a latex based acrylic paint , Tamiya is a solvent based acrylic paint and much more forgiving to spray. I also think the Tamiya paint pigmentation is much finer so flows through the brush better and much more efficiently, it has a slower drying time over Vallejo so reducing tip dry.
 

I struggled to get Vallejo so spray consistently with my Iwata Tr-1 for a while, but using their own thinner and retarder works well but you have to play with the ratios to find the sweet spot. I wouldn’t even think about spraying Vallejo with less than a 0.3 needle, the pigments are just too finicky in my book. 
 

Just my take on it, I’m using more and more lacquer paints such as MRP and the newish Tamiya LP lacquer range with virtually  no tip dry. 
 

HTH

 

Dan 

[Doggy]

Thanks Dan.

[lasermonkey]

I always found that Liquitex Slo Dry retarder worked wonders at preventing nozzle clogging. Flow improver, IMO, works well for brush painting, but I never found it much cop for airbrushing.

 

To be honest, I never liked Vallejo paints. Way too fragIle and no adhesion to speak of. "Held on by gravity", I believe one of our fellow forumites is quoted as saying!

[little-cars]

Strange I never have a problem with H&S and Model air.

 

The only other thing to check is that you have a matched set of needle, nozzle and air cap, then a visual check inside the nozzle to make sure there isn't any dried or gel of paint in there.  I have had customers have a problem if they are switching paint types in the past.

Paul

[Dandie Dinmont]

Hi Doggy,

 

like you, I have a H&S silverline with a 0.2 nozzle and needle. I’m an airbrushing novice but I’ve never had any issues using model air straight from the bottle without any thinner or flow improver. Actually come to thing on it, I did suffer the same sort of symptoms you’re describing on one occasion but that was when I’d accidentally left the pressure regulator set to 35 psi after a cleaning session, instead of my usual 15 - 18 psi. It might seem counter-intuitive but you could maybe try reducing the pressure you’re spraying at? Other than that, all I can do is echo Paul’s advice and suggest you check the nozzle for blockages. 
 

Hope this is of some help,

Craig. 

[Valenstitch]

Hello Doggy,

 

I use a Sparmax gun, for priming mainly, it has a  .4 or larger needle, and an H&S Ultra? that comes with two needles, a .4 and a .2 I think, for painting proper, I do not use the H&S for primer at all. I have had mixed results with all types of paint and similar issues to yourself with both airbrushes until quite recently, and this is where the story really starts, I dismantle my airbrushes to clean them every time I use them, I mean every shoot, I use a nozzle pick, airbrush brushes clean water the lot, I use an ultrasonic cleaner at the end of a session........result? I still had problems, I stir the paint with a battery paint stirrer and thin it, normally 2:1, I use the same brand of thinner as the brand of paint........result? I still had problems. Finally I thought I would try and filter the paint as I was taught to decades ago, I found these on a well known internet retailers site https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07YFCNFDY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1. They are big, about the size of a coffee filter, obviously intended for professional use, but at a penny a go I took a punt. I tell you what, they worked for me, I pour all my paint and primer through filters now, I`ve not had an issue with clogging or flecks or loss of pressure since. Now I`m not suggesting this is the panacea to all your issues, or that ten quid is necessarily a cheap fix for everyone, but no one else has suggested it, and it has worked as a remedy for my airbrushing issues!

 

Best of luck

Granto    

[Doggy]

1 hour ago, little-cars said:

Strange I never have a problem with H&S and Model air.

 

The only other thing to check is that you have a matched set of needle, nozzle and air cap, then a visual check inside the nozzle to make sure there isn't any dried or gel of paint in there.  I have had customers have a problem if they are switching paint types in the past.

Paul

It's been happening from day 1. I expected model air to be easy to use but honestly it sprays for a second or two then clogs with the needle open.

I have a  0.4mm needle but I've never opened it, I'll try that today as Dan suggested.

1 hour ago, Dandie Dinmont said:

Hi Doggy,

 

like you, I have a H&S silverline with a 0.2 nozzle and needle. I’m an airbrushing novice but I’ve never had any issues using model air straight from the bottle without any thinner or flow improver. Actually come to thing on it, I did suffer the same sort of symptoms you’re describing on one occasion but that was when I’d accidentally left the pressure regulator set to 35 psi after a cleaning session, instead of my usual 15 - 18 psi. It might seem counter-intuitive but you could maybe try reducing the pressure you’re spraying at? Other than that, all I can do is echo Paul’s advice and suggest you check the nozzle for blockages. 
 

Hope this is of some help,

Craig. 

I'll double check that today. Thanks.

[Doggy]

38 minutes ago, Valenstitch said:

Hello Doggy,

 

I use a Sparmax gun, for priming mainly, it has a  .4 or larger needle, and an H&S Ultra? that comes with two needles, a .4 and a .2 I think, for painting proper, I do not use the H&S for primer at all. I have had mixed results with all types of paint and similar issues to yourself with both airbrushes until quite recently, and this is where the story really starts, I dismantle my airbrushes to clean them every time I use them, I mean every shoot, I use a nozzle pick, airbrush brushes clean water the lot, I use an ultrasonic cleaner at the end of a session........result? I still had problems, I stir the paint with a battery paint stirrer and thin it, normally 2:1, I use the same brand of thinner as the brand of paint........result? I still had problems. Finally I thought I would try and filter the paint as I was taught to decades ago, I found these on a well known internet retailers site https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07YFCNFDY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1. They are big, about the size of a coffee filter, obviously intended for professional use, but at a penny a go I took a punt. I tell you what, they worked for me, I pour all my paint and primer through filters now, I`ve not had an issue with clogging or flecks or loss of pressure since. Now I`m not suggesting this is the panacea to all your issues, or that ten quid is necessarily a cheap fix for everyone, but no one else has suggested it, and it has worked as a remedy for my airbrushing issues!

 

Best of luck

Granto    

Lol it looks a bit like a She wee. 

 

I'm at a loss. I'm a mechanic to trade and have worked in loads of bodyshops with spray painters etc so I have seen loads of issues over the years. 

 

I'm wondering if I've bought fake paint or something?

[sergant-san]

20 hours ago, Doggy said:

So a few weeks ago I managed to get a new H+S silverline.

I also bought Vallejo model air RLM colours and almost immediately I had clogging issues.

So after doing some research I bought Vallejo flow improver and air brush thinners.

 

Tonight I tried everything out and it's still clogging after a second or so.

 

Eventually I tried 10 drops of paint, 2 drops of thinners and 2 drops of flow improvers and it still clogged.

 

I then gave up and went back to my old sparmax to finish painting the model, again 10 drops of paint but only 2 drops of flow improvers. 

The Sparmax ran ok but you could hear it struggling as it started to clog.

The HS will run fresh water no problem and it runs Tamita ok although it's been a while since I used it.

 

What else can I try? Would a 0.4 needle help?

Higher pressure? I run about 20 psi.

 

I can't understand how a Spanish paint dries out so quickly in cold Glasgow.

 

Thanks.

For 0.2 needle you need to thin paints more than for the 0.3 or 0.4 needles. Also, thin paints outside of the air brush and not in the paint cup so the mix is more even and you can pick out any splodges out before they stuck in the nozzle.

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by sergant-san

[malpaso]

I have the H&S Ultra and a secondhand Evolution  .  Both came with 0.2 and 0.4 needles.  I started with the 0.2 as that was the one fitted, but after a while swapped to try the 0.4.  Most (not all) of my airbrushing troubles reduced, so the 0.2s have sat unused for ages.  I have thought about having one brush set up as .2 for detail spraying but to date my skills don’t show any benefit from the finer set up!  
I assume the .2 being standard for H&S  is because their primary market is artists using inks.  Or maybe they just realised they could supply modellers with the more expensive double needle sets?  It’s worth noting that most other airbrush ranges marketed to modellers seem to  start at 0.3 upwards.

Edited April 22, 2020 by malpaso

[Doggy]

4 hours ago, sergant-san said:

For 0.2 needle you need to thin paints more than for the 0.3 or 0.4 needles. Also, thin paints outside of the air brush and not in the paint cup so the mix is more even and you can pick out any splodges out before they stuck in the nozzle.

 

cheers. I normally mix my tamiya in a pipette with no problems however today I did decide to use a little shot glass to mix the paint.

 

 

[Doggy]

So today was interesting. 

 

I changed to 0.4 and it seemed to spray ok then it clogged. 

 

I really thinned the model air down with flow improver and airbrush thinner. Eventually it did spray without clogging but I felt it was a bit too thin for the mottling.

 

when I tried the mottling it did clog a few times resulting in a burst of paint onto the model, not nice.

 

Oddly I thin my Revell paint with water and the HS sprays Revell aqua pretty well. It seems to spray Tamiya well too.

 

I've not been using the airbrush long enough to be sure what's going on but I think it's safe to say model air doesn't want to comply.

 

The model air out of the bottle drips really thick. I kept the bottle in my pocket for heat and I gave it plenty of shaking. 

 

The whole point of the HS and the model air was to paint my German and Japanese stuff, at this rate I'll never get around to it. 

 

I feel as if I'm just wasting this paint and wasting my time cleaning airbrushes all day. 

 

The RLM 81 and 82 actually look really good on this model but it was too much of a struggle, it shouldn't be this difficult.

 

[Giorgio N]

I'm another modeller who is using an H&S (the Ultra in my case) with a 0.2 tip and I generally have no problem with Model Air paints. Or better, they sometime start drying on the tip after a while but not from the start. I use one or some of these to sort the problem:

1) the easiest is to add a drop or two of retarder to the paint before starting. I use Liquitex's and works pretty well. I've also tried Vallejo's airbrush cleaner and seems to be working very well too.

2) Before painting, I spray a few drops of retarder or airbrush cleaner only before I start painting. This leaves a thin film of retarder on the tips and helps me quite a lot.

3) Not recommended, but I always keep a small soft brush at hand. If the tip starts clogging, I dip the brush in retarder/cleaner and gently pass it on the tip. Sorts the problem in no time.

All of this spraying at around 15 psi.

 

I should add that while I generally use Model Air paints straight from the bottle, when I do mottling and similar effects I do thin it a bit. However, as these paints are often already thinned enough for my taste, I often mix them to the consistency I like with Vallejo's own Glaze Medium. This makes the paint more transparent without increasing the thinning ratio so that I can get the coverage I wish without ending with a paint that is too "watery".

[lasermonkey]

Just to emphasise my point: retarder, not flow improver. Flow improver will not cure your problem. Trust me!

 

:-)

 

[Doggy]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

I'm another modeller who is using an H&S (the Ultra in my case) with a 0.2 tip and I generally have no problem with Model Air paints. Or better, they sometime start drying on the tip after a while but not from the start. I use one or some of these to sort the problem:

1) the easiest is to add a drop or two of retarder to the paint before starting. I use Liquitex's and works pretty well. I've also tried Vallejo's airbrush cleaner and seems to be working very well too.

2) Before painting, I spray a few drops of retarder or airbrush cleaner only before I start painting. This leaves a thin film of retarder on the tips and helps me quite a lot.

3) Not recommended, but I always keep a small soft brush at hand. If the tip starts clogging, I dip the brush in retarder/cleaner and gently pass it on the tip. Sorts the problem in no time.

All of this spraying at around 15 psi.

 

I should add that while I generally use Model Air paints straight from the bottle, when I do mottling and similar effects I do thin it a bit. However, as these paints are often already thinned enough for my taste, I often mix them to the consistency I like with Vallejo's own Glaze Medium. This makes the paint more transparent without increasing the thinning ratio so that I can get the coverage I wish without ending with a paint that is too "watery".

I can't understand why I'm getting so much bother, I'll just have to keep experiment. There will definitely be part of my technique adding to the issue. I was watching loads of videos last night on  different paints, mig and hataka they all seem pretty thick too.

[Doggy]

48 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

Just to emphasise my point: retarder, not flow improver. Flow improver will not cure your problem. Trust me!

 

🙂

 

liquitex slow dri? I can get that from amazon. 

 

there's two types, slow dri fluid retarder and slow dri blending medium I take it I only need the retarder?

 

I thought the flow improver was a retarder. 

 

can I just add that stuff to Vallejo, I'm always concerned about mixing brands.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Doggy
forgot something

[sergant-san]

16 hours ago, Doggy said:

So today was interesting. 

 

I changed to 0.4 and it seemed to spray ok then it clogged. 

 

I really thinned the model air down with flow improver and airbrush thinner. Eventually it did spray without clogging but I felt it was a bit too thin for the mottling.

 

when I tried the mottling it did clog a few times resulting in a burst of paint onto the model, not nice.

 

Oddly I thin my Revell paint with water and the HS sprays Revell aqua pretty well. It seems to spray Tamiya well too.

 

I've not been using the airbrush long enough to be sure what's going on but I think it's safe to say model air doesn't want to comply.

 

The model air out of the bottle drips really thick. I kept the bottle in my pocket for heat and I gave it plenty of shaking. 

 

The whole point of the HS and the model air was to paint my German and Japanese stuff, at this rate I'll never get around to it. 

 

I feel as if I'm just wasting this paint and wasting my time cleaning airbrushes all day. 

 

The RLM 81 and 82 actually look really good on this model but it was too much of a struggle, it shouldn't be this difficult.

 

Strange, I have few of Model Air and Game Air paints and they are as thin as they can be.. and I usually spray them from H&S Silverline 0.4 with no thinning, just a drop or two of flow improver.. I usually mix then in the tea candle aluminium cup before getting them in to the airbrush.. For my 0.2 ultra I thin them about 50/50 with thinner and add 1-2 drops of flow improver.. However, i paint mini figures and I need multiple thin coats  

[Doggy]

It must be partially me. 

 

In one the the videos the chap mentioned pigment, more pigment means thicker paint.

When I painted the underside of the model it was a pale blue and from memory it went on ok.

 

It's RLM 81 and 82 that I'm having bother with, do darker colours have more pigment?

[lasermonkey]

31 minutes ago, Doggy said:

liquitex retarder? I thought the flow improver was a retarder. 

 

can I just add that stuff to Vallejo, I'm always concerned about mixing brands.

From what I can tell, flow enhancer is designed to break up the surface tension of the water mixed in with the paint, making it easier to apply by paintbrush. Retarder slows down the drying time of the paint, the results depending on how much you add. I found that just a drop or two in the airbrush cup was fine. Most definitely different animals!

 

I've used the Liquitex stuff with every brand of acrylic I have tried, including Vallejo. No nozzle clog with any of them!

 

Cheers,

Mark.

 

 

[Doggy]

31 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

From what I can tell, flow enhancer is designed to break up the surface tension of the water mixed in with the paint, making it easier to apply by paintbrush. Retarder slows down the drying time of the paint, the results depending on how much you add. I found that just a drop or two in the airbrush cup was fine. Most definitely different animals!

 

I've used the Liquitex stuff with every brand of acrylic I have tried, including Vallejo. No nozzle clog with any of them!

 

Cheers,

Mark.

 

 

What one is it you use? I don't want to buy the wrong product.

 

Thanks.

[lasermonkey]

This is the one you want:

 

The label has changed since I bought mine (probably twenty years ago, it'll last you for ages!) but the "fluid retarder" is the important bit, and that's what it says on mine.

 

Hope this helps,

Mark.

 

p.s. you might find that on a long spraying session you might need to brush a small amount of "hot" thinners around the airbrush tip as even with retarder, any paint build-up will start to dry, especially with a constant stream of air blowing past it. I would use an old paintbrush for the task. Just dip it in the thinners (I used cellulose thinners), give the tip a quick scrub, spray the excess to one side (definitely not onto your model!) and once clear, you can continue. I would have a small amount if cellulose thinners in a small pot ready for any such occurrences. It's not a bad idea even if you use enamels.

[Doggy]

Thanks, it order and coming on Sunday so stay tuned for the next episode.

[lasermonkey]

1 minute ago, Doggy said:

Thanks, it order and coming on Sunday so stay tuned for the next episode.

Honestly, the Slow-Dri was a gamechanger for me when I was exclusively using acrylics. Although I rarely use them any more, when I do, I always reach for the retarder!

[Doggy]

I'm close to crying here. 

 

I've tried liquitex slow dri still can't get this to stop clogging.

 

The model air paint to me looks really thick so I can thin it to it's the consistency of milk and if I'm covering a full wing it sprays ok.

 

With the paint thinned I can leave the airbrush for 10 minutes and it won't clog.

So spraying big areas with the trigger pulled far back it's fine. The second I try delicate mottling the tip just clogs. I start to get bubbling back through the cup and trigger.

 

This is destroying me, I've no idea what else to do.

 

Incidentally a few days ago I sprayed 4 different tamiya paints without a hitch. 

 

The airbrush has been stripped, soaked overnight and thoroughly cleaned out.