Painting instructions P 40B 'flying Tigers' Burma 1942

[MigModeller]

Hi all

 

Really enjoyed making the Airfix  Tomahawk.  Recently descovered my Frog decals for a Flying tigers P 40B

 

Only I have one side painting instruction and no decscription of colours.  I thought of Humbrol 30 dark green and humbrol 29 dark earth for above and Revell 59 duck egg green for below.  Can I improve on this in enamel paints?

 

For those of you bewilded or need of revision:  Gen. Clair Lee Chennault's American Volunteer Group took delivery of just 90 P 40Bs to fight the Japanese invasion of China.

 

Thanks in anticipation for any links/paint suggestions.

 

M.M.

[John Thompson]

This might help:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=britmodeller+AVG+colours

 

John

[LDSModeller]

4 hours ago, MigModeller said:

I thought of Humbrol 30 dark green and humbrol 29 dark earth for above and Revell 59 duck egg green for below.  Can I improve on this in enamel paints?

I'm not familiar with Revell 59 Duck Egg Green, so cannot honestly comment

 

Other than Colourcoats (Sovereign Hobbies) who manufacture/sell paints for US

manufactured RAF aircraft such as the P40, the only other Enamels I can suggest

for your Model Hu 29 Dark Earth, Hu 23 Duck Egg Blue undersides

The dark green is another matter, as the US - Dupont Curtiss applied Dark Green

is actually a Black Green but no relation to Hu 91 though.

No Manufacturer that I know (other than colourcoats) manufacture something even close.

Just to give you an idea the swatch below are US Dupont Colours painted on an RNZAF P40E-1

(from RAF order)

For My P40E-1 Build, I mixed my own DuPont Dark Green per below,

may be of some help?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

[Troy Smith]

2 minutes ago, LDSModeller said:

The dark green is another matter, as the US - Dupont Curtiss applied Dark Green

is actually a Black Green but no relation to Hu 91 though.

Alan, by any chance do you know what the closest FS595 "match"  might be,  I'm fully aware of the FS595 limitations, but now owning a set it does at least mean a better idea of the actual colour.

Vallejo do some greens that might be close, so something to compare against would be very useful.

 

Also, in this thread I posted and linked pics of a ex British P-39 recovered in Russia in the original paint, which might be of interest

 

5 hours ago, MigModeller said:

I thought of Humbrol 30 dark green

I have no idea why Humbrol keep making this colours, as AFAIK it's a reasonable match for Extra Dark Sea Green.... which is not one of of those colours you use much....

 

Adding some red to it will neutralise the blue hue and make into an olive green.

[LDSModeller]

47 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Alan, by any chance do you know what the closest FS595 "match"  might be,  I'm fully aware of the FS595 limitations, but now owning a set it does at least mean a better idea of the actual colour.

Hi Troy,

 

Looking at the FS Standard I have access to (taking into account monitor considerations etc)

FS 14036 looks (to me) a close/good match?

 

I haven't used Vallejo Paints, so can't give an honest opinion on those

 

Hope that helps?

 

Regards

 

Alan

[HBBates]

Im not sure how much this will help but a photo of some skin samples I was able to collect from one of the Tomahawks recover from Russian ...fyi the sky in person did have a green tinted that does not show the the photo

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by HBBates

[TheRealMrEd]

Bottoms of the AVG P-40Bs, etc. were light grey.  Much info (as well as individual color plates for all aircraft) can be had in Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #41 " Americasn Volunteer Group Colours and Markings", by Terrill Clements, published 2001.

 

Also, be aware that camo patterns varied on a FEW of the aircraft, but most all had differing sharkmouth paintings, etc.

 

Ed

[LDSModeller]

1 hour ago, TheRealMrEd said:

Bottoms of the AVG P-40Bs, etc. were light grey. 

If you check out the the link below, closest P40, the main gear doors are not a light

grey, on my monitor they appear Bluish Green, which is what I would expect

from a British Order placed with Curtiss, following British Air Ministry requirements,

paid for in British Gold.

AVG P40B Screen shot

[MigModeller]

3 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

If you check out the the link below, closest P40, the main gear doors are not a light

grey, on my monitor they appear Bluish Green, which is what I would expect

from a British Order placed with Curtiss, following British Air Ministry requirements,

paid for in British Gold.

AVG P40B Screen shot

My computer does not like your screen shot

The Frog kit's colour guide shows duck egg smthng,  Revell 59 is the closest I have

[LDSModeller]

3 minutes ago, MigModeller said:

The Frog kit's colour guide shows duck egg smthng,  Revell 59 is the closest I have

Then I would go with that

 

Good luck with the rest of your model build

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

[bentwaters81tfw]

The P-40 gear bays were lined with a canvas bag to keep the dirt out:

[Super Aereo]

Curtiss used Du Pont 'Sky Grey', which was supposed to match (loosely) British 'Sky'.

 

Also see: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234951720-dupont-raf-colours/

[LDSModeller]

7 minutes ago, Super Aereo said:

Curtiss used Du Pont 'Sky Grey', which was supposed to match (loosely) British 'Sky'.

Actually DuPont Sky Type S-grey which is a Duck Egg Blue colour,

following Air Ministry requirements for a Duck Egg Blue aka Sky

The Lower Colour in my P40E-1 paint swatch above is DuPont Sky Type S -Grey.

It's a very "Pale Blue" colour with a Greenish tinge

[Toryu]

On many colour pictures of AVG Hawks the underside 'Sky' variated into something looking closer to grey, sometimes even with a beige tinge. Admittedly there is also the random picture on which it appeared like light blue. Taking into account that colour pictures are not necessarily 'true' I would still claim that the Dupont 'Sky' had a strong greyish appearance or faded to a warm light grey.

The best book on AVG camouflage and markings, in my opinion, is Thomas Tullis' Tigers Over China (Eagle Files #4) with many colour photos and profiles. It also explains the variations of  sharkmouths and their fading process. Excellent reading on AVG history is Daniel Ford ' Flying Tigers' from Smithonian.

 

Cheers, Michael

[LDSModeller]

4 hours ago, Toryu said:

Taking into account that colour pictures are not necessarily 'true' I would still claim that the Dupont 'Sky' had a strong greyish appearance or faded to a warm light grey.

The question I would ask, given that as you mention that colour photos are not "necessarily true",

have you ever actually seen DuPont Sky Type S- Grey in the flesh so to speak?

 

As I posted previous, the colour swatches I have, the lower Colour is DuPont Sky Type S- Grey.

The Colour is a very vivid Pale Blue with a Greenish Tinge, nothing Grey about it at all even when

weathered.

[TheRealMrEd]

A more detailed discussion:  AVG P-40B colors

 

Ed

[Troy Smith]

21 minutes ago, TheRealMrEd said:

A more detailed discussion:  AVG P-40B colors

 

Ed

note date, 2004-2005 of the discussion.  

 

The grey undersides are wrong. 

 

This has been the cause of many a bunfight on Hyperscale.

 

the P-40's were built for the British, pre land lease.  Why would Curtiss paint the undersides light grey.  The British were paying customers, and specified certain colours. 

also,  see below.   

 

17 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

Just to give you an idea the swatch below are US Dupont Colours painted on an RNZAF P40E-1

(from RAF order)

 

 

10 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

Actually DuPont Sky Type S-grey which is a Duck Egg Blue colour,

following Air Ministry requirements for a Duck Egg Blue aka Sky

The Lower Colour in my P40E-1 paint swatch above is DuPont Sky Type S -Grey.

It's a very "Pale Blue" colour with a Greenish tinge

 

 

 

[TheRealMrEd]

Actual photo from the collection of Col R.L. Smith who was there:

 

 

No blue to be seen here.  A possible explanation from these two pages from Scale Aircraft Modeling #3 "P-36 and P-40"

 

 

Ed

[LDSModeller]

4 minutes ago, TheRealMrEd said:

No blue to be seen here. 

Doesn't look grey either.

 

There are a number of reasons why the colours looks the way it does,

and I would venture none of them include the actual colour Grey

 

As Troy stated above, this was a British Order built to British Specifications paid for with British Money, before Lend Lease.

If the requirement was to paint the lower area of the airframe a Duck Egg Blue or even a Duck Egg Green, why would Curtiss

paint the lower section grey? Make no sense what so ever?

 

The other issue I have is this, If Curtiss painted P40B aircraft grey when it was not warranted, how is that they then managed to paint

the undersides of Export P40E's Duck Egg Blue as in my P40E-1 Swatch above, a short time later?

 

In a former life I managed Production Planning and Production for a subsidiary of a US Fortune 500 Company, interestingly  a lot to do with colours.

If a Customer wanted a certain product a certain way especially large quantities,  you would want that Customer to return, so you gave them what they wanted.

If you could offer off the shelf then great, if not your R&D Section worked a solution to the Customers satisfaction.

The Customer generally had strict requirements and Quality Control was important.

 

The British Air Ministry had specific requirements of Dark Earth/Dark Green/Duck Egg Blue (aka Sky) given the time frame, which

this order fell into.

The aircraft were gifted/or given over to the Chinese for use by the AVG were from that order.

Why would Curtiss paint the aircraft grey when there was no call for it. This was not an order for

a US contract, not even a Chinese contract - I doubt the Chinese would want a paint change.

 

Britain, had aircraft inspectors working with these companies. Hugh Dowding of Battle of Britain

fame lead technical groups to the US to work with these companies.

I have a page from a Curtiss M&E manual for a P40 (circa 1943), which states that any aircraft finish was to be to the

satisfaction of an  Inspector of the "Procuring Agency" (for cockpit finishes). One would expect the same for the airframe too.

 

There is a DuPont Paint document with "RAF" colour chips, DuPont 71-021 Sky Type S- grey is on there, but not Sky Grey

It's my Humble opinion, that the suffix "Grey" is more to do with it's production, and therefore set it apart from the RAF version.

 

Last but not least, if you look at this P40B wing in a scrapyard (somewhere in the RAF Far East), look at the lower leading

edge of the wing in the fore ground it's not grey (not on my screen any rate), looks blue/green to me

I've left it as a link, so you can enlarge it

AVG P40 wing

 

I would suggest reading these Posts by a well known member here who is well versed in this material

Nick Millman on AVG Underside colour

 

Nick Millman on AVG Underside colour

 

 

 

[whiskey]

This is all starting to hurt my head.....

[Super Aereo]

Reproductions of contemporary colour photograph might be helpful to judge the overall aspect of an aircraft, but should not be trusted blindly, due to colour shifts in both the original and in the print/scanning process.

[TheRealMrEd]

Grey

 

 

Grey

 

 

Grey

 

If Curtiss didn't think they were as close as they could get to the British specs and just wanted to slap on some paint, why wouldn't they just have painted the undersides plain of Neutral Grey, a darker shade, like all the other U.S. P40's?

 

Oh, and the film from that era tended to shade toward blue, not away from it.  Duckegg blue would have been even more pronounced, sort of like the famous photos of the P-51's that looked blue due to the film shift, but were actually O.D.  Curtiss was trying tii get as close as possible to Sky Grey...

 

Ed

Edited April 23, 2020 by TheRealMrEd

[LDSModeller]

 

39 minutes ago, TheRealMrEd said:

could get to the British specs and just wanted to slap on some paint

Actually, none of those look Grey to me at all, they look Duck Egg, I really don't think you get the whole

British Contract built to British Specification part.

I'm not going to waste my time explaining what I see, the Why's and Wherefores, I've said my piece, and leave it at that.

 

For all intents and purpose if you think they are grey that's your opinion

and you're entitled to it.

 

For those like me, I'll/we will continue to believe otherwise, and agree to disagree

 

Nuff said

[Super Aereo]

Worth reading:

 

Post #14 by Nick Millman - https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34201-avg-flying-tigers/

 

 

[whiskey]

@Super Aereowow that's a blast from the past for sure, as some of the previous mentioned threads. Here's my question, is there a match, or close enough, from paint manufacturers like MRP, MiG, Hataka, etc, for the 71-021? I would go along with the idea that it's the color of the underbelly.

Edited April 23, 2020 by whiskey