467 Sqn Lancaster LM583. PO.T or PO.O?

[Michael51]

 Xtradecal sheet X72195 provides decals (amongst others) for Lancaster LM583 PO.T of 467 Squadron. Or should that be PO.O?

 

The 'O' code is given in an image of what purports to be LM583 on iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207953.

 

Would a forum member be able to shed light on what appears to be a discrepancy?

 

Funny how such mundane issues obsess one during these Covid times.

 

Michael

 

[Rafwaffe]

Curiouser and Curiouser.

The ADF serials page has it as 'PO-P' and most other pages list it as 'PO-O'

 

My curiousity is picqued and whilst I am in lancaster mode thanks to the current GB I will dig through my reference library on the RAAF Squadrons and see what I can come up with. 

 

May be as simple as the aircraft during it's life was at one time 'T' 'O' and 'P'

Edited April 21, 2020 by Rafwaffe

[Dan_RAFBC]

LM583 was PO-O, note the "PO O" near the Bomb Aimers blister. Not denying it could have also been another letter but it was also lost wearing O.

PO-P from ADF serials could be an easy typo with O and P being next to each other on the keyboard.

 

Also the decal sheet X72195 contains what looks to be a black cross for the tail rather than the correct blue one.

 

Dan

[Michael51]

Thanks for your reply.

 

Yes, it is a curious one, this LM583.

 

Holmes' "Lancaster...complete record" gives the same date (p.211) of 29-30/7/44 for the loss of LM583 on a mission to Konigsberg. 

 

This accords with your ADF serials source which gives the same details.

 

Problematic is the absence of any record in Middlebrook's "Bomber Command War Diaries" - a source I have always seen as close to unimpeachable - of a raid on Konigsberg on that late July date.

 

What Middlebrook does record is a major raid on that city, not in July, but rather 29/30 August 1944 by 5 Group.

 

Curiously, the previously cited Holmes, in another section of his work, at p.149, cites the loss of LM583 for that date too, 30.8.44, on a raid to Konigsberg.

 

As such, the Holmes work has contradictory entries.

 

This 29/30 August date seems the more likely as it is also given in the 467 Squadron ORB as the date for the loss of LM583 with the comment, "Aircraft missing - no messages received."

 

Further support for this date is given on the rafcommands.com (CWGC) website which lists all crew members as being lost without trace on 30.8.44 and subsequently listed on the Runnymede Memorial.

 

The 467 Sqn ORB lists it as a Lancaster III.

 

None of these sources provide definitive proof of it being PO. O, T or P.

 

It is only an Airfix Lancaster I am making - and none too well - but it would be nice in a round about sort of way, to accord those poor men the right aircraft code.

 

The Xtradecal people presumably have a reason for listing it as 'T' but their source eludes me.

 

Michael

[Dan_RAFBC]

I think PO-T could have been mistaken from the image as instinctively it looks like "PO" is "T" with the bottom left of the "O" appearing to be a roundel.

 

Edit:

Bomber Command Losses 1944 by W R Chorley lists LM583 as PO-O lost 29/30 August 1944 on an Operation to Königsberg.

Bomber Command War Diaries by M Middlebrook and C Everitt have two entries for raids on Königsberg by Lancaster of No.5 Group, those being 26/27 August and 29/30 August.

 

Dan

[Michael51]

11 minutes ago, WhitleyZ6743 said:

LM583 was PO-O, note the "PO O" near the Bomb Aimers blister.

PO-P from ADF serials could be an easy typo with O and P being next to each other on the keyboard.

 

Also the decal sheet X72195 contains what looks to be a black cross for the tail rather than the correct blue on.

Thank you for this and well spotted you.

 

Are you able to send me a link to the photograph you are looking at?

 

Mine is sufficiently poor to blur the these details into obscurity.

 

Yes, you are also correct in noting the incorrect black (should be blue) cross on the decal sheet.

 

I think you may have solved this.

 

Michael

[Michael51]

18 minutes ago, WhitleyZ6743 said:

I think PO-T could have been mistaken from the image as instinctively it looks like "PO" is "T" with the bottom left of the "O" appearing to be a roundel.

 

Edit:

Bomber Command Losses 1944 by W R Chorley lists LM583 as PO-O lost 29/30 August 1944 on an Operation to Königsberg.

Bomber Command War Diaries by M Middlebrook and C Everitt have two entries for raids on Königsberg by Lancaster of No.5 Group, those being 26/27 August and 29/30 August.

 

Dan

Thanks Dan,

 

I do not have the Chorley works and I appreciate you citing it as this seems to put the matter beyond contention: I will assume it is PO.O.

 

As for the 26/27 August raid on Konigsberg, the 467Sqn ORB lists LM583 as having participated, piloted by W/C Brill himself, as a marker. 

 

Michael

[Dan_RAFBC]

1 minute ago, Michael51 said:

As for the 26/27 August raid on Konigsberg, the 467Sqn ORB lists LM583 as having participated, piloted by W/C Brill himself, as a marker. 

Very unfortunate to have been lost 3 days later going to the same place.

 

IWM image blown up here:

 

Dan

[Michael51]

Thanks Dan,

 

That is a much clearer image and that settles it.

 

Michael

[Snapper49]

On 4/21/2020 at 6:12 AM, Michael51 said:

 Xtradecal sheet X72195 provides decals (amongst others) for Lancaster LM583 PO.T of 467 Squadron. Or should that be PO.O?

 

The 'O' code is given in an image of what purports to be LM583 on iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207953.

 

Would a forum member be able to shed light on what appears to be a discrepancy?

 

Funny how such mundane issues obsess one during these Covid times.

 

Michael

 

Hi folks
I have just joined this group as my meanderings on the web threw up a result that led me to the forum where Michael51' requested info about Lancaster LM583 of 467 Squadron RAAF, and its code/call sign and the subsequent discussion.

I am fortunate enough to have made a copy of my Uncles Log Book many years ago. The information below is taken from it.

My Uncle was posted to B Flight 467 Squadron RAAF at Waddington on 26 April 1944.
He was a Navigator.
As was often the case, air crew didn't always fly in the same aircraft nor with the same crew members.
 In my Uncles case he flew in different aircraft for the first 7 Ops mostly with the same crew under Pilot F/Sgt Waugh, (later F/O).

His log book shows from Ops 8 through to Ops 34, all of which were in Lancaster B Mk III, LM583, Code PO O, he flew with P/O Waugh and mostly with the same crew members.

His operational flights began in Lancaster DV277, PO W, on the night of 29-30 April 1944, to St Medard-En-Jalles, France. His last operational flight was in Lancaster B Mk III, LM583, Code PO O on 14 August 1944, Quesnay, France.

All of his regular air crew survived their Tour of Duty with only one of them ever being injured. This member received a minor shrapnel wound (Flack) to the leg.  No mean feat and no doubt with a lot of luck at a time when aircraft and crew losses were horrendous in Bomber Command.

His log book shows there were a number of training and testing flights interspersed with the Ops. Several of these flights he participated in were in Lancaster RS5868 PO S.

I trust you find this interesting.

Thank you Michael51 for your query and to those who replied as this just adds a little more info to the big picture.

Regards
Ron

PS
For years I have been searching the web for a photograph of Lancaster LM5838 PO O.
I found the photo of PO O taking off with the White tail and 'Blue"cross some time back.
This might be another of PO O, but the image is not clear and there are no comments other than "Lancasters of 467 Sqn RAAF". What do others think?  
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/media/lancasters-467-sqn-raaf.5236/

/

On 4/21/2020 at 6:12 AM, Michael51 said:

 Xtradecal sheet X72195 provides decals (amongst others) for Lancaster LM583 PO.T of 467 Squadron. Or should that be PO.O?

 

The 'O' code is given in an image of what purports to be LM583 on iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207953.

 

Would a forum member be able to shed light on what appears to be a discrepancy?

 

Funny how such mundane issues obsess one during these Covid times.

 

Michael

 

Hi folks
I have just joined this group as my meanderings on the web threw up a result that led me to the forum where Michael51' requested info about Lancaster LM583 of 467 Squadron RAAF, and its code/call sign and the subsequent discussion.

I am fortunate enough to have made a copy of my Uncles Log Book many years ago. The information below is taken from it.

My Uncle was posted to B Flight 467 Squadron RAAF at Waddington on 26 April 1944.
He was a Navigator.
As was often the case, air crew didn't always fly in the same aircraft nor with the same crew members.
 In my Uncles case he flew in different aircraft for the first 7 Ops mostly with the same crew under Pilot F/Sgt Waugh, (later F/O).

His log book shows from Ops 8 through to Ops 34, all of which were in Lancaster B Mk III, LM583, Code PO O, he flew with P/O Waugh and mostly with the same crew members.

His operational flights began in Lancaster DV277, PO W, on the night of 29-30 April 1944, to St Medard-En-Jalles, France. His last operational flight was in Lancaster B Mk III, LM583, Code PO O on 14 August 1944, Quesnay, France.

All of his regular air crew survived their Tour of Duty with only one of them ever being injured. This member received a minor shrapnel wound (Flack) to the leg.  No mean feat and no doubt with a lot of luck at a time when aircraft and crew losses were horrendous in Bomber Command.

His log book shows there were a number of training and testing flights interspersed with the Ops. Several of these flights he participated in were in Lancaster RS5868 PO S.

I trust you find this interesting.

Thank you Michael51 for your query and to those who replied as this just adds a little more info to the big picture.

Regards
Ron

PS
For years I have been searching the web for a photograph of Lancaster LM5838 PO O.
I found the photo of PO O taking off with the White tail and 'Blue"cross some time back.
This might be another of PO O, but the image is not clear and there are no comments other than "Lancasters of 467 Sqn RAAF". What do others think?  

/

[Michael51]

Ron,

 

It might be another aircraft, but if you want it to be LM5838 'PO.O', then why not? I would.

 

This is a relativist approach - one that is at odds with the view that evidence must be found.

 

After all these years since 1944, I see no harm in it

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

[Tom33]

On 4/21/2020 at 11:34 AM, Michael51 said:

Thanks Dan,

 

I do not have the Chorley works and I appreciate you citing it as this seems to put the matter beyond contention: I will assume it is PO.O.

 

As for the 26/27 August raid on Konigsberg, the 467Sqn ORB lists LM583 as having participated, piloted by W/C Brill himself, as a marker. 

 

Michael

HI Folks

 

I am new to this forum and stumbled on the posts.

 

I am more interested in LM583 itself and its last trip. Like Ron, I am often scanning the internet looking for information on LM583 (the aircraft has never been found to my knowledge)

 

The pilot on that fateful trip was David Sandell (RAAF) on his first trip.

 

He had done 2 previous "second dicky" trips with Brill (maybe the ones noted in the post) but this was the first where David and his crew were going without the expereinced pilot to guide them.

 

The raid was a very difficult one (long distance, bad weather, night fighters) and I think 3 aircraft from 617 were lost that night including LM583.

 

My interest is that my dad and David were best mates - having completed all their training together (in Australia, Cananda and England) with David going to 467 and dad to 460. Dad's first trip was a few days after David was lost (imagine) having completed only 1 "second-dicky" trip but his luck was in and completed 33 trips (servivng the war and living to 93).

 

My dad's early trips were a bit scratchy (in terms of experience - remember they are a bunch on 20-21 year olds) but they survived their early "easier" trips. Dad said David's crew were given a really difficult task for a new crew (I think they called them "sprog crews"). Till the end of his days, dad would still reminise about how his good mate was lost but he survived...

 

Tom

 

 

[Alscalemodels]

On 05/09/2021 at 16:35, Tom33 said:

HI Folks

 

I am new to this forum and stumbled on the posts.

 

I am more interested in LM583 itself and its last trip. Like Ron, I am often scanning the internet looking for information on LM583 (the aircraft has never been found to my knowledge)

 

The pilot on that fateful trip was David Sandell (RAAF) on his first trip.

 

He had done 2 previous "second dicky" trips with Brill (maybe the ones noted in the post) but this was the first where David and his crew were going without the expereinced pilot to guide them.

 

The raid was a very difficult one (long distance, bad weather, night fighters) and I think 3 aircraft from 617 were lost that night including LM583.

 

My interest is that my dad and David were best mates - having completed all their training together (in Australia, Cananda and England) with David going to 467 and dad to 460. Dad's first trip was a few days after David was lost (imagine) having completed only 1 "second-dicky" trip but his luck was in and completed 33 trips (servivng the war and living to 93).

 

My dad's early trips were a bit scratchy (in terms of experience - remember they are a bunch on 20-21 year olds) but they survived their early "easier" trips. Dad said David's crew were given a really difficult task for a new crew (I think they called them "sprog crews"). Till the end of his days, dad would still reminise about how his good mate was lost but he survived...

 

Tom

 

 

 

Hi guys,  

 

I’ve looked into Lancaster  PO-O (Orange) quite a lot over the years as I have a personal connection to it. 
 

PO-O was warn by LM376, LM583, PB740 and LM310 and potentially more.  
 

my great uncle was the rigger for those aircraft and would have met and known the crews.  He would have known P/O Waugh and possibly your navigator uncle. 
 

here are the photos I have, my great uncle (M.Rees)  is pictured sat at the front in the bigger group photo with LM376 in the background and stood to the right of P/O Waugh in the other photo. 

the other two photos are of two different PO-O’s. 

 

I have a friend who’s a volunteer at the RAF Waddo museum and I’ve asked if he has any photos of LM583, if any exist other than the post war version ( cross on tail fin) , he will have them. 
 

 

https://imgur.com/a/YPMvlDM

[Peter Roberts]

That is wonderful! Thank you for posting this information and photos.

[Alscalemodels]

7 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

That is wonderful! Thank you for posting this information and photos.

So I’ve spoken with my friend, and he has no other photos of LM583, it was only with 467 for a couple of months before it went to 103 squadron. 
 

here is its transfer in, repair and exit from 467 squadron. 
 

https://imgur.com/a/1i2MNSo

[galgos]

That movement card is clearly in error, and probably the source of Harry Holmes’ contradictory entries in his book. The critical error is the “missing” date, shown as 29/7/44 when it should have been 29/8/44, the date it was lost on its return from Konigsberg. The re-location shown to 103 Squadron must also be wrong because LM583 was operating with 467 Squadron when lost. 
According to Theo Boiten’s latest edition of the “Nachtjagd War Diaries”, the Konigsberg op started very well in that because of total radio silence and a low level approach the bombers were actually over the target before accurate assessments of the intended target were received within the Nachtjagd set up. However a layer of cloud over Konigsberg hindered attempts to bomb accurately so the Master Bomber, W/C Woodroffe had his force circling for 20 minutes before a break in the cloud appeared. However this delay gave the assembling Nachtjager time to engage the bombers, 9 being claimed as shot down in fierce battles over the city. There were several unidentified Lancaster losses that night, especially those shot down over the sea on their return routes. For what it’s worth LM583 is a possible claim for Lt Oberle from NJG102, but there are 4 other Lancs that his claim could have been. 
467 Squadron lost three aircraft and 463 Squadron two on this operation.  Sadly David Sandell, posted to 467 Squadron on 16 August from 51 Base, lasted only two weeks operationally having enlisted and trained since June 1942.