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'Buzzing' or close-call interception with other aircraft


Filbert_Wang

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https://news.yahoo.com/russian-fighter-jet-executes-unsafe-220808085.html

 

Seem to be seeing a lot of this in the news recently. I have to say was a little disappointed by the video not being more dramatic (not sure if I was expecting the Flanker to roll upside down, and a load of playing cards to fall to the top of the canopy while the pilot was waving!)

 

Thought some people here might have some knowledge and could answer these questions

 

- What is the purpose of doing this?

- Is it only Russian/Chinese aircraft that do it? (And why is it always seemingly in a Flanker or derivative?) You don't seem to read about NATO Eurofighters doing it when they intercept Russian bombers coming over the Arctic. If so is it just the NATO pilots that a have a greater respect for danger (or their counterparts have less concise orders? "Yes you can take the plane out, make sure you're back before dark!" :D ) Are the pilots doing this off their own initiative or will have been told to do so?

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Some muscle flexing and posturing comes into play as well*

The fun part is there are normal separation guidelines, but armed forces have the option of declaring MARSA (military assumes responsibility of separation of aircraft).

At that point, it's becoming more a question of who polishes the brass ones best.

 

*Of course you log a vocal complaint using SM as this is all part of PR...

 

[edit]
Used to be a frequent occurence in the Cold War days.

Of course, the decline of the USSR and the dismal state of the 1990s Russian Air Forces & Navy didn't exactly allow for 'showing the flag' flights.

It is more recently happening again due to the renewed interests of Russia in playing a bigger role.

The intercept you linked is in the Eastern Med - close to Syria where this Flanker might be based. 

 

Edited by alt-92
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I think really it's slightly unprofessional behaviour on the part of the pilot. It's all great fun until someone loses a wing. 

 

But needless to say the crew of big unmanouverable aircraft don't appreciate high spirited fighter pilots. 

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There are plenty of YouTube videos showing Russian jets screaming over squadron flightlines at little more than a few feet or flashing overhead foreign military ships at the same altitude. This may upset some members, but in my opinion Russian aircrew show little professionalism, discipline or airmanship and, frankly, can be equated to "hold my beer" cowboys.

 

No, ours are not perfect, but when they come to do their job they do it properly. There is lots of footage of RAF or other NATO interceptors taken from Russian aircraft -which, incidentally, are usually barreling through controlled airspace with no transponders or ID to enable controllers to let civilian airliners know about them- but notice that they are always keeping at the appropriate distance from the intercepted aircraft and obeying internationally agreed protocols for such incidents.

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I suppose but most or many pilots have a tendency to show off. Don't think for a minute that the Red Arrows, professional as are they don't enjoy the show off bit. 

 

Different countries and nationalities have different rules and personalities. 

 

I remember being told about a young military pilot whose last words was a text: 'Watch this! '. He crashed and burned. 

 

I'm as guilty as any pilot. My favourite moment of hooliganism and there were several was when I cleared the hangar roof by a whisker at full chat. People in the hangar were somewhat traumatised. 

 

I feel such guilt. 🤣

 

 

 

Edited by noelh
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Of course they like to show off. Pilots, and particularly jet pilots, have it in their DNA. But intercepting a foreign military aircraft with your own aircraft loaded with enough weaponry to make a big bang and the potential to cause a major international incident is not the time to show off and act like a muppet. Two well known cases that illustrate the point:

 

13 Sep 1987: a Soviet Su-27 collides with a RNorAF P-3B while intercepting it over the Barents Sea. Both aircraft returned to their home bases.

 

1 Apr 2001: a Chinese J-8II collides with a USN EP-3E while intercepting it near Hainan Island, causing it to make an unauthorised landing at Lingshui airfield. The Chinese pilot died in the collision.

 

In both cases the intercepting aircraft ignored accepted procedure and came in too close. One of those pilots died as a result of his stupidity.

 

How many Soviet/Russian aircraft have been struck by NATO fighters in decades of QRA intercepts? Take a guess.

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The term-of-art for the maneuver that involved overtaking another airplane from below and pulling up sharply in front of it was “thumping” because the overtaken would be bounced about in the wake of the overtaker. I’m shocked that any fighter pilot would do such a thing, Shocked...

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On 4/20/2020 at 6:43 PM, Filbert_Wang said:

- Is it only Russian/Chinese aircraft that do it?

 

In those countries, if the pilots of those countries die because of their recklessness, their communist propaganda labels them as "heroes".  Goes without saying that military pilots of communist regimes have been brainwashed since their childhood to think that it's ok to kill yourself for the motherland....as long as you take down as many of your (supposedly) 'enemies' with you.

 

So I suspect one of the reasons why they do this is because of their indoctrination.  If NATO pilots did the same reckless maneuvers ( or were caught doing this 🤫 😉) , they'd lose their wings.

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Russia isn't a communist country, and most pilots flying interceptors now wouldn't have grown up under communist rule. 

 

But yeah, great theory 🤔

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On 4/26/2020 at 12:49 AM, Truro Model Builder said:

Of course they like to show off. Pilots, and particularly jet pilots, have it in their DNA. But intercepting a foreign military aircraft with your own aircraft loaded with enough weaponry to make a big bang and the potential to cause a major international incident is not the time to show off and act like a muppet. Two well known cases that illustrate the point:

 

13 Sep 1987: a Soviet Su-27 collides with a RNorAF P-3B while intercepting it over the Barents Sea. Both aircraft returned to their home bases.

 

1 Apr 2001: a Chinese J-8II collides with a USN EP-3E while intercepting it near Hainan Island, causing it to make an unauthorised landing at Lingshui airfield. The Chinese pilot died in the collision.

 

In both cases the intercepting aircraft ignored accepted procedure and came in too close. One of those pilots died as a result of his stupidity.

 

How many Soviet/Russian aircraft have been struck by NATO fighters in decades of QRA intercepts? Take a guess.

Then on the other hand have a look where all this happened... definitely not too close to the homebases of the intercepted aircraft....

I guess if not wanting to shoot, being a pain in the a ... aldo can be seen as first line of defence....  kinda show of force flybys usually perfomed on insurgents...

The line is this though!

 

And showing off going wrong is not limited to the other side.... think of the Edit: US, not UK Apache crash in Afghanistan....

Edited by exdraken
Wrong air arm!
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Plenty of cases of showing off gone wrong in every air force, including the RAF, RN and AAC, I agree. Not sure that the Apache incident fits in that category, reading the BoI report. As I said, however, when flying armed fighters near to a larger, not-as-maneuverable aircraft from a potentially hostile country in a politically charged arena you should actually stick to the rules. Flying close enough to hit them is not a sensible course of action, and certainly not a line of defence.

 

 

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Hmmm I am talking about this video, I did not read any report on it, let me know if tjete us any publicly available please!

 

About the other points, I am absolutely not in favor o recless behavior, or putting others n danger unnecessarlly... just want to state that there is not a log else you can do without directly using arms.. if you want to unmistakingly wanh the other to kniw he is not welcome around... so might be reckless, or planned more aggressive.... depending on the situation I guess! Definitely more dangerous than staying at base...

Edited by exdraken
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53 minutes ago, exdraken said:

Hmmm I am talking about this video, I did not read any report on it, let me know if tjete us any publicly available please!

 

About the other points, I am absolutely not in favor o recless behavior, or putting others n danger unnecessarlly... just want to state that there is not a log else you can do without durectly using arms.. if you want to unmistakingly wanh the other to kniw he is not welcome around... so might be reckless, or planned more aggressive.... depending on the situation I guess! Definitely more dangerous than staying at base...

Just a point about the video there; that's a US Apache doing the belly flop. 

I've read/listened to more than one or 2 anecdotes regarding US Apache pilots being a little more... Cowboy-ish than AAC pilots. I think differences in SOP allow for it more over there. 

Edited by daryl_five_zero
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34 minutes ago, daryl_five_zero said:

Just a point about the video there; that's a US Apache doing the belly flop. 

That might be the reason why I do not find nothing about it! Sorry if someone felt offendet!

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On 4/26/2020 at 6:07 AM, Jackman said:

If NATO pilots did the same reckless maneuvers ( or were caught doing this 🤫 😉) , they'd lose their wings.

Hmm. Better mention that to the F-14 and F-18 pilots that did that to me then. I don’t think I’ve ever been so close to an F-14, particularly the top side of an F-14! 😳

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20 hours ago, Roland Pulfrew said:

Hmm. Better mention that to the F-14 and F-18 pilots that did that to me then. I don’t think I’ve ever been so close to an F-14, particularly the top side of an F-14! 😳

Are you allowed to give details? :) 

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On 4/20/2020 at 8:43 PM, Filbert_Wang said:

What is the purpose of doing this?

There are any number of ways to ‘nicely’ say #%^* off...

 

Some countries just have different standards and tolerances (not to mention training and experience).

Most peacetime interceptions are indeed performed ‘professionally’ - it comes down to what the protagonists will stomach at any given time.


Compare the Bear interceptions where the Soviet crew happily waved to the interceptor with this: https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/International/north-korea-shot-us-plane-1969-killing-31/story%3fid=50108838

 

How much prodding can each side take?

Edited by Blimpyboy
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On 4/26/2020 at 8:49 AM, Truro Model Builder said:

Of course they like to show off. Pilots, and particularly jet pilots, have it in their DNA.

 

Sadly, accident/incident reporting files are full of such 'professionalism'.

https://navalaviationnews.navylive.dodlive.mil/2015/07/29/grampa-pettibone/

 

Gramps2_Winter2013.png

 

TedWilber_Gramps_T-34_web.jpg

 

 

 

 

As gramps would say: "'nuff said".

gramps.png

 

 

Edited by Blimpyboy
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12 hours ago, Blimpyboy said:

There are any number of ways to ‘nicely’ say #%^* off...

 

Some countries just have different standards and tolerances (not to mention training and experience).

Most peacetime interceptions are indeed performed ‘professionally’ - it comes down to what the protagonists will stomach at any given time.


Compare the Bear interceptions where the Soviet crew happily waved to the interceptor with this: https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/International/north-korea-shot-us-plane-1969-killing-31/story%3fid=50108838

 

How much prodding can each side take?

That is horrendous.. I hadn't read that story before. 

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Not the only time it happened during the Cold War either. Most victims were USAF or USN, but not always. For the RAF the most infamous incident was on 12 March 1953, when an Avro Lincoln of the Central Gunnery School was shot down by a pair of Soviet MiG-15s over East Germany while flying in one of the agreed air corridors to Berlin. All seven on board were killed, and there was some suggestion that three of the crew had bailed out and were strafed after landing.

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