Airfx Petlyakov PE-2 1/72

[Ozzy]

7 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

I see you have had the wrong colours pointed out... and are awaiting new ones.

on this page are two templates for Pe-2's in 3 colour upper scheme

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1943-45-bombers/1943-45bombers.html

 

 

but there was quite  a variation in application.

I have not seen a photo of the Airfix Soviet plane,  but as long as the stars don't have yellow outlines,  they should be useable.  

The 3 tone uppers are quite striking 

 

this is a too brown image of a B-25 on  a test flight in the USA, despite what the caption says, but when the US stopped camouflage, the VVS still wanted planes painted,  so they were painted to VSS specification pattern and colours,  in the US, in American paint.

 

 

 

Brilliant thanks Troy,

 

6 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Might I say that as nice as this kit is, it is more a Pe-3. 

Late Pe-2 had the turret as did the -3 but the glazing on the -2 nose came up round the sides of the fuselage whereas the -3 glazing was the same as the Airfix kit.

I'm currently finishing mine as a Finnish one, thus I've been studying photos of them.

Thanks Black Knight,

 

look forward to seeing your finished build.

[Ozzy]

We are underway, started with the cockpit and colouring the interior. For this I used Tamiya's XF-25 light sea grey, it was the closest colour I had in the paint rack. Having read an article, probably more with modern Russia aircraft. The cockpits were painted strange blue green colours, to stop the aircrews from falling asleep. 

 

 

[modelling minion]

Good to see you off to a cracking start Ozzy.

[Ozzy]

8 hours ago, modelling minion said:

Good to see you off to a cracking start Ozzy.

Thanks Craig,

[Aardvark]

On 4/29/2020 at 12:05 PM, Ozzy said:

 

Thanks to @AdrianMF pointing out the camouflage was 3 tone, I've treated myself to this set. Looking forward to them arriving to allow me to start.

As all know (?) Pe-2/3 (except for a few limited series that had  to make wooden parts of the wing and tail, when it was really bad with metal) was almost metal except control surfaces.

 

The problem is that AMT Series paints were for wood and fabric, for metal there were their analogs to Series A. Paints, however, AMT and A paints could have similar shades and vary in shades.  For example, the A-28m analogue of AMT-7, after some weathering, was close to Humbrol 23, as indicated in the Russian monograph, which is considered basic.  Paints of the AMT series could also be used on metal, but then they had to be applied in two layers.

But naturally, two layers of paint have more weight, therefore there will be some drop in performance, which is probably not entirely acceptable in a war.

On 5/5/2020 at 6:28 AM, Troy Smith said:

The 3 tone uppers are quite striking 

 

this is a too brown image of a B-25 on  a test flight in the USA, despite what the caption says, but when the US stopped camouflage, the VVS still wanted planes painted,  so they were painted to VSS specification pattern and colours,  in the US, in American paint.

 

It is unlikely that these colors are related to the colors of the Air Force, I think the same story here as with American planes for Britain painted with American specifications for American paints.

On 5/5/2020 at 7:23 AM, Black Knight said:

Might I say that as nice as this kit is, it is more a Pe-3. 

Late Pe-2 had the turret as did the -3 but the glazing on the -2 nose came up round the sides of the fuselage whereas the -3 glazing was the same as the Airfix kit.

I'm currently finishing mine as a Finnish one, thus I've been studying photos of them.

I think, Airfix close to Pe-2 than to Pe-3bis.  I know a little what I'm talking about:

😉😁

On 5/5/2020 at 11:00 PM, Ozzy said:

We are underway, started with the cockpit and colouring the interior. For this I used Tamiya's XF-25 light sea grey, it was the closest colour I had in the paint rack. Having read an article, probably more with modern Russia aircraft. The cockpits were painted strange blue green colours, to stop the aircrews from falling asleep. 

 

 

I think XF-66 close but XF-25 also not bad. Many consider close to the interior grey A-14 - Humbrol 87.

Inside interior also was green colour, close to green zinc chromat FS 34151, b.w. FS 34151 also close to metal analog AMT-4 green.

On the Pe-2 from Monino, the thrust of the pedals of the pilot and the rotating ring of the machine gun turret are painted green.  But this Pe-2 from Monino is assembled from parts of three Pe-3s.

 

B.R.

Serge 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Aardvark

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Aardvark said:

It is unlikely that these colors are related to the colors of the Air Force, I think the same story here as with American planes for Britain painted with American specifications for American paints.

B-25D models supplied to the VVS were is US Olive Drab over Neutral Grey,  but when  the US stopped camouflaging planes,  These B-25's  were being built specifically for the VVS, and the VVS  were asked what colors they would like. 

There is no US wartime camouflage scheme like this in pattern or colors. ,  and this is a based on  VVS bomber pattern, but using  nearest American paint. 

note this pattern for the Il-4, and then compare

from http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1943-45-bombers/1943-45bombers.html

replace the black with dark grey and add black undersides (see the Yer-2 and other types used at night)  and this is basically the same pattern as above

 

The US even under lean lease would supplied aircraft in equivalent colors for the British,  Eastern Motors built Wildcats and Avengers for the Fleet Air Arm, using Olive Drab for Dark Slate Grey and Sea Gray for Extra Dark Sea Grey. 

 

[Aardvark]

55 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

B-25D models supplied to the VVS were is US Olive Drab over Neutral Grey,  but when  the US stopped camouflaging planes,  These B-25's  were being built specifically for the VVS, and the VVS  were asked what colors they would like. 

There is no US wartime camouflage scheme like this in pattern or colors. ,  and this is a based on  VVS bomber pattern, but using  nearest American paint. 

note this pattern for the Il-4, and then compare

from http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1943-45-bombers/1943-45bombers.html

replace the black with dark grey and add black undersides (see the Yer-2 and other types used at night)  and this is basically the same pattern as above

 

The US even under lean lease would supplied aircraft in equivalent colors for the British,  Eastern Motors built Wildcats and Avengers for the Fleet Air Arm, using Olive Drab for Dark Slate Grey and Sea Gray for Extra Dark Sea Grey. 

 

I do not dispute the scheme itself, but I strongly doubt that in the USA, for the USSR Air Force made 100% identical shades of AMT/А, most likely they took some kind of close shade of American paint, no more.

Only that.

 

B.R.

Serge

[Troy Smith]

3 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

most likely they took some kind of close shade of American paint, no more.

OK, then we agree. 

 

AFAIK the used ANA 613 Olive Drab, ANA 603 Sea Grey and ANA Sand 616.

I have seen this last colour listed as ANA 617 Dark Earth,  but that's too dark for the photo, the best 'match' to AMT-1 and to the photo (there are better versions out there) from the US ANA chips from what I can see is ANA 616 Sand

see here

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1366.msg22092#msg22092

 

I have the books the chips are scanned from in the link, so I'm not just using the scan.

 

Apologies for the thread drift @Ozzy.... or though you may have an Airfix B-25J in the stash you can now do as a companion to the Pe-2   

[Ozzy]

Thanks @Aardvark, @Troy Smith, all Intresting stuff. 

[Ozzy]

Bit more done tonight, nearly ready to glue the fuselage together.

 

 

[modelling minion]

Coming along very nicely indeed Ozzy, excellent work!

[stevej60]

I second Craig's comments looking good.

[Ozzy]

19 hours ago, modelling minion said:

Coming along very nicely indeed Ozzy, excellent work!

 

19 hours ago, stevej60 said:

I second Craig's comments looking good.

Thanks Guys,

 

shes coming together really well, I can see now why it was such a hard kit to find.

 

a bit more progress today, got the crew painted up a little different to the all over black of my childhood years. I also tapped up the canopy ready for a bit of paint, somthing else I would never have done as a kid. Once the turret has its top painted I can stick the fuselage together, hopefully get that done over the weekend.

 

[PeterB]

Hi Ozzy,

 

I have the later 2010 boxing, and as with the original 1968 original version Airfix have gone for an all green uppers finish - Hu30 of course with Hu65 unders. This continued in the revised 1973 boxing according to the pics on Scalemates, but then for some reason, in your 1979 boxing they switched to green/brown. Then in 1983 they seem to have reverted to all green again although the pic on Scalemates looks almost like black. Lord knows why they changed their mind - perhaps they had seen one of the supposedly "accurate" books on Russian WWII camo, which are now generally considered wrong - don't believe Pilawskii's now disputed volume was out that early mind. Incidentally the alternative Czech version in my box is shown as Hu175 over Hu65 - Hu175 is the"Hellgrau" that has been out of production for quite a few years so I wonder if they meant Hu165 Medium Sea Grey?

 

Pretty good looking plane and it will be interesting to see what it looks like in the correct colours for when I finally build mine.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[Graham Boak]

What are all these "Supposedly accurate" books on Russian camouflage which are now generally considered wrong?  I only know of two books dealing specifically with Russian camouflage, Pilawski's only deals with fighters (a beautiful book but seemingly cut from whole cloth) and the other (Stalin's Falcons)  is still thought of as being right.  Given that it shows copies of the official diagrams, so it should.  There were a lot of books on Russian aircraft which basically had no idea about camouflage and just copied earlier errors.  The Profile on the Pe2 has some beautiful artwork, but sadly...

 

It is entirely fair to say that the Airfix Pe.2 was released in the dark years, so faults in this respect are totally unsurprising and Airfix can't be blamed.  As for re-releasing their awful Yak.9 and Il.2, that's another matter, as nowadays it is known better.  There is an excellent set of transfers for the Pe.2 which acts as a first class guide to the aircraft and its camouflage schemes, the name is something like Bergamot but in a quick search I can't find a reference for it.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Graham Boak

[TonyW]

I finished my kit as White 12 from this old ESCI sheet. The original Airfix ones exploded once water got involved. The ESCI decals were not much better, but a passable model resulted. The colours shown were right for the time I guess.

 

 

The model itself is boxed up awaiting repairs as it got damaged during our last move. I know where it is and will dig it out later.

[Ozzy]

13 hours ago, TonyW said:

I finished my kit as White 12 from this old ESCI sheet. The original Airfix ones exploded once water got involved. The ESCI decals were not much better, but a passable model resulted. The colours shown were right for the time I guess.

 

 

The model itself is boxed up awaiting repairs as it got damaged during our last move. I know where it is and will dig it out later.

Thanks Tony,

 

the colour set I have, the green looks a little bright I may swap it out. I will watch out for the decals, as I have the original box ones.

[Aardvark]

18 hours ago, PeterB said:

Hi Ozzy,

 

I have the later 2010 boxing, and as with the original 1968 original version Airfix have gone for an all green uppers finish - Hu30 of course with Hu65 unders. This continued in the revised 1973 boxing according to the pics on Scalemates, but then for some reason, in your 1979 boxing they switched to green/brown. Then in 1983 they seem to have reverted to all green again although the pic on Scalemates looks almost like black. Lord knows why they changed their mind - perhaps they had seen one of the supposedly "accurate" books on Russian WWII camo, which are now generally considered wrong - don't believe Pilawskii's now disputed volume was out that early mind. Incidentally the alternative Czech version in my box is shown as Hu175 over Hu65 - Hu175 is the"Hellgrau" that has been out of production for quite a few years so I wonder if they meant Hu165 Medium Sea Grey?

 

18 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

What are all these "Supposedly accurate" books on Russian camouflage which are now generally considered wrong?  I only know of two books dealing specifically with Russian camouflage, Pilawski's only deals with fighters (a beautiful book but seemingly cut from whole cloth) and the other (Stalin's Falcons)  is still thought of as being right.  Given that it shows copies of the official diagrams, so it should.  There were a lot of books on Russian aircraft which basically had no idea about camouflage and just copied earlier errors. 

Hi, gentlemen's!

 

When I wrote:

On 5/6/2020 at 10:49 PM, Aardvark said:

as indicated in the Russian monograph, which is considered basic

I meant cycle article "Colour Soviet Aviation"

in "M-Hobby" modeller's magazine, where the period was considered starting from 20-30 years and ending with 50 years. For wartime period was this table

with close equivalent Federal Standard and Humbrol.

 

This table as a whole is confirmed by photographs of the shrunken “Catalog of NKAP* Paint Stains” of 1947, where it is the paint samples and not the printing industry.

Of course you can say that since 1947 the colors in the album could change their color and become inappropriate for those colors that were during the war, this is possible.  But in the same way, this is also possible with RAF, RLM, ANA colors. 

In any case, it is better to have a base at least something than not to have any and be guided by someone else's fantasies instead of official sources.

Of course there are production compounds, the components are known, the percentage of the mixture, but the problem is that these are mineral mixtures.

For example, how to determine from which field the “zinc khron”, which was part of the basic ground paint 4BO during the war, was mined, what specific technological processes were there when it was received in order to recreate the exact military color? It's a very difficult.

 

Personally for me, when I compares 

fabric cover with paint black & green 

Yak-1b Kutsenko (served in the same regiment along with Litvyak) shot down over Stalino (now called Donetsk city, where I live) with samples of model paints, the greatest coincidence was with FS 34151

(I use GS from set "Interior colour"

)

as indicated "AMT-4 green" in the article.

 

Of course, the article is basic and does not consider all the nuances, but so far there is nothing else.  But for details you's can also read this thread on the Russian forum:

 

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954.html

 

For "my"** fighter version Pe-3bis

I decided as follows:

bottom - all metal cover A-28m - Humbrol 23 (or analog Tamiya/GS) + little light blue 

all fabric cover AMT-7 - Humbrol 115 (or analog Tamiya/GS)

top - 

all metal cover

- FS 34151 from GS 

- any black.

all fabric cover :

- AMT-4 - Humbrol 117 (or analog Tamiya/GS) 

- AMT-1 any black.

but this is my personal choice for fighter (!) version.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

____________

*NKAP - Narcomat Aviatcionnoi Promishlennosti - 

People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry

**- in fact, one friend of mine did not mind what I would do to him, his model, for his collection.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Aardvark

[Graham Boak]

Thank you.  I should of course have said "available in the West" as opposed to published in Russian sources.

[Aardvark]

11 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Thank you.  I should of course have said "available in the West" as opposed to published in Russian sources.

Absolutely without any pretentious from me!

 

I'm just only posting own  my personal opinion as modeller, but with evidence available to me.

 

But new future documents and evidence probably can always be opened after which those claims that were previously may be in doubt. Which confirms this topic

by the way.

🤗

 

B.R.

Serge 

 

 

[PlaStix]

Hi Ozzy. I hope you and yours are all keeping well. Just catching up and it looks like you are making very good progress with this project!

Kind regards,

Stix

[Graham Boak]

The Pe.2 transfer sheet I was referring to was from Begemot.

 

Aardvark:  A third publication recently available in the West is the AKA WW2 Colours book, but I don't have it to consult for two reasons: I already have significant colour references for British, American and German aircraft but it doesn't cover Japanese (or Italian?), and the equivalent work on tanks is pretty awful when it comes to British subjects, despite having far superior information made available and even credited.  However the section on Russian paints may well be better: I've only had a quick look.  It should be added that considerable useful discussion can be found on the Sovietwarplane website run by Massimo Tessitori., 

 

I would however point out that there are more than the two extreme alternatives (official catalogues and fantasy) available to the colour researcher.  There may be contemporary colour description, which are of course at risk of poor colour identification but can be consider if sufficient reliable comments are made (and consistent where known):  there may be contemporary models made with or without the actual paints; there may be artwork by artists devoted to realism rather than abstract or other schools of art - even then their colour recognition will be far superior to the average observer.  There may even be records of the basic ingredients of each paint colour, and there may have been considerable discussion of these colours over the years.  I suspect that because of the years of secrecy many of these may not be readily available to even a Russian researcher - colour memories are particularly uncertain after even a short time let alone decades!

 

There is no doubt that colour samples kept on acidic paper will  be affected., and there has been discussion about this on the chart you show, particularly in view of the dark appearance of the two greys which appear odd compared to comments of it being a light camouflage, and the use of equivalent greys for the same role in other air forces.  One of the greens has clearly been affected.  The same problem has severely damaged modelling of the WW2 Royal Navy, where recent research by Jamie of Sovereign Hobbies and others has tracked down the true colours involved, now available in Colourcoats.  You may find his discussion of the research, and the factors involved in the deterioration, of considerable interest even if you lack the slightest interest in ships.  However the UK and US colour records are kept on acid free paper, and have been subject to continual investigation and publication over the years, so any deterioration would be tracked and allowed for.  In the case of German colours, a wide range of samples are known (you illustrate the value of such samples yourself), and samples have even been made by the original manufacturer using their own records of the ingredients and recipes. 

 

All this still of course leads to considerable possibilities of variations due to different paint manufacturers using different formulae to obtain the required colour (for example British Dark Green fades to either a grassy green or an olive brown), and different levels of supervision and inspection (here the immense variation permitted in US Olive Drab in the early 1940s).  This is part of what makes it such a fascinating aspect of our hobby, and it is a shame that the recent Russian information is not more generally available to the more average modeller and enthusiast.  Not to mention the kit producers.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

19 hours ago, PeterB said:

and as with the original 1968 original version Airfix have gone for an all green uppers finish -

the Polish box art plane  represents a post war aircraft.   Polish units serving in the VVS used red stars

The VVS started  repainting planes pretty fast post war,  see

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1945-1950-newtypes/1945-1950-newtypes.html

 

Quote

The new soviet planes of the immediate postwar could be finished with:

solid grey upper and side surfaces and light blue undersurfaces, up to 1948;

solid green upper and side surfaces and light blue-grey or blue undersurfaces, that replaced the previous one in 1948;

 

this is what the Polish boxing is intended to represent I presume.  A Il-10 capture in Korea, a US period color photo

 

20 hours ago, PeterB said:

Incidentally the alternative Czech version in my box is shown as Hu175 over Hu65 - Hu175 is the"Hellgrau" that has been out of production for quite a few years so I wonder if they meant Hu165 Medium Sea Grey?

this is also a post war scheme, as again the Czechoslovak units used a red star in the war

Quote

The new soviet planes of the immediate postwar could be finished with:

solid grey upper and side surfaces and light blue undersurfaces, up to 1948;

Again, see the link.  I presume the upper colurs are supposed to represent this

 

19 hours ago, PeterB said:

Hu30 of course with Hu65 unders.

erm, no. 

Airfix only started using Humbrol numbers in the late 80's in the instructions.  Not sure when Airfix stopped doing their own paint @John I suspect would know that! 

Airfix would have been M3 Dark Green over a mix, M10 white and M27 dark blue IIRC,  as I distinctly remember mixing the underside colour on mine.

This was unusual on an Airfix kit, possibly the only time a mix was called out that I remember.  

 

I was convinced at the time Airfix were the font of true knowledge then, and followed instructions diligently.

 

Aas an aside, I was given 10 years ago some Plasticine model from this era, in large matchboxes, the biggest shock was my hand written instructions, which were based on very careful observation of Airfix sheets from the time, by this it has the numbers in the different identifier shapes Airfix used...I have been meaning to do some pics of these as they are ...a foretaste of obsessions to follow

 

Instruction mix colour shown here shown here.. 

 

I do have a Red Stripe Pe-2, but not to hand to check,  I got it off a fellow club member, it's old enough it has the price sticker in shillings and pence.... 

 

One final point, by the time the Airifx kit came out, modelling was also a popular hobby behind the iron curtain, I was given a run of Airfix magazines from the 60's, and there were occasional letters from Poland and Czechoslovakia I think. 

@JWM  has been long time modeller in Poland, and maybe able to add some some details.

Ah, and as this got the brain going...

I checked the scans of the Pe-2 profile

note photo at bottom of page

from here, the whole thing scanned..

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Aircraft-Profiles/Soviet-Union---USSR/Petyakov-Pe-2-216

 

interestingly the 5 view main profiles show are not utter junk,  looking the the early war black over green scheme....

 

@Ozzy  again, apologies for the thread digression.

[Ozzy]

6 hours ago, PlaStix said:

Hi Ozzy. I hope you and yours are all keeping well. Just catching up and it looks like you are making very good progress with this project!

Kind regards,

Stix

 

Thanks Stix,

 

were all  good down here thanks, the kit is very nice and it's been a joy to build. Hopefully I can get something slightly bigger for the under a tenner GB? I was out bid on the Stirling.

 

no worries @Troy Smith I hadn't realised how hotly debated this subject would be. As a mainly Armour modeller it's mainly green, grey or a yellow.

 

ive made some real progress today with the building finished off and a coat of paint given to the top side. I'm really happy with the way it's turned out so far, I went for wheels up in the end.

 

 

[modelling minion]

Looking great Ozzy, the camouflage looks really good.