PR MOSSIE - TAMIYA 1:48

[top turret toddler]

I`m currently trying my darndest to wrap my head around the prospect of getting together a PR bird based on the Tamiya mk IV kit. There seems to be a lot of stars that have to align perfectly before setting the course and i need you lot to loan some more brainpower i think. Some feedback on how the Tamiya kit lends itself to this prospect would be nice. I mean if building the PR version right out of the box, what sort of issues (in a negative sense) would this come with? What are the shortcomings? I want a british PRU bird (allover blue, no D day markings) but i`m not sure if my best bet is to use the usual powerplants or two stagers. Also i`m wondering if my Paragon #48074 bomb bay can be used as a photo bay or are these two bulged bays a different size? Tamiya does not even call out the drop tanks in their kit in the instructions so i don`t know what size they are. Would the 200 gallon one be correct only for the mk 34? Should i just go with the Tamiya mk IV kit or try to pursue a mk 34 build?   

[Troy Smith]

AFAIK the Tamiya B.IV kit has the parts to make a PR IV.   The PR IV predates D-Day.

You only need to think about two stage engines and bulged bays if you are doing a later version. 

https://www.tamiya.com/english/products/61066mosquito/index.htm

 

Quote

This kit may be assembled into either the B Mk.IV bomber version or the PR Mk.IV photo-reconnaissance version of the multi-role twin-engined de Havilland Mosquito. The distinctive characteristics of these versions, such as the clear nose, canopy bulges, and crew access hatch with ladder have all been accurately reproduced. Parts for the bomber version's 500lb bombs and the reconnaissance version's cameras are also included. To top it off, the kit comes with two pilot figures and three marking options, two for B Mk.IV and one for PR Mk.IV.

 

If you want something other than a PR IV.... then you need to work out what version you want..

[top turret toddler]

Maybe choosing the mk IV is the easy way out, but is the kit accurate right out of the box? Will problems start to materilaze only if i start to look at either the mk 16 or 34 with all the different bits these birds came with? A bulged bomb/photo bay looks very interesting from my perspective but i know too little about it. I have quite a bit of AM laying around but how to combine them all into one kit is not neccesarily a fun prospect if you don`t know where to start. Also if anyone knows of any AM for PR cameras or anything in this category would be welcome.  

Edited April 19, 2020 by top turret toddler

[Work In Progress]

It is an accurate PR.IV straight out of the box.

 

If you want a late PR version then you will be embarking on multiple major conversions including a new bomb bay, wing tanks, engines, canopy, tailplanes. Up to you which you want to do.

[gingerbob]

I'm not aware of PR.IVs ever having bulged bellies- in fact, doesn't that come very late to PR Mosquitos?  One thing to be careful of (assuming that you care) is extra blisters on canopy panels- they may appear where the kit doesn't provide.

 

The vertical tail may be slightly tall on the Tamiya, but it's not the sort of thing you need to worry about unless it's the sort of thing you find you need to worry about!

 

As for cameras, you'd have to open areas up in order to see anything, which it sounds like you're desperately trying to come up with a reason to do.  There are some cameras in the "recent" [sic] Revell Mosquito, not to be confused with the ancient Monogram/Revell Mosquito.  There are also some generic cameras in certain Spitfire kits and aftermarket, and probably some other places.  The shapes (at least as represented!) are pretty simple, so you could probably work some up from bits of plastic, too.

 

As Troy suggested, if you're not willing to take the easy path of doing a PR.IV, then you really ought to look at what bits you have/can get readily, and then figure out what variant will tick the most boxes for you.  Or build more than one Mossie!

 

bob

[top turret toddler]

I think i know a fair amount about modeling the mossie but as one starts to look at modeling the more obscure variants, things become more complicated. Right now it looks like i will take the easy way out and do a mk IV OOB build. That being said i would like to gain some more knowledge about this now as i have a few more such kits to tend to later on, and one of these will most certainly be a late war PR bird. No going around it, simply love the Mossie  

 

Couple more Qs. Did the mk IV have the top blister on the canopy? If so i can make one myself. Another Q regarding the bulged bays. Did the bulged BOMB bay differ in size from the PHOTO bay type? My Aero Detail book tells me they did differ in size, but not much more than that. If anyone knows of any in depth books regarding this matter i am all ears. (or any MAI magazine articles catering for this build) Also, what were the main differences between the three PR Mossies (thinking of camera/video equipment) 

 

I am planning to use Humbrol PRU blue. Any input on thinning or is this product also accurate right out of the jar? 😄 If i was to administer any chipping effects, how would i go about this, the Mosquito being made of wood not metal? Was there some type of primer that would show through underneath the PRU blue? Also, would a parked Mossie sport lowered flaps/horizontal stabs? What about the rudder, any deflection the norm and would the tail wheel point in the same direction as the rudder when sitting on the ground? 

 

From the local fishmarket, a little treat for all the hungry eyes out there..

https://www.finn.no/bap/forsale/ad.html?finnkode=161749999

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by top turret toddler

[top turret toddler]

5 hours ago, gingerbob said:

I'm not aware of PR.IVs ever having bulged bellies- in fact, doesn't that come very late to PR Mosquitos?  One thing to be careful of (assuming that you care) is extra blisters on canopy panels- they may appear where the kit doesn't provide.

 

The vertical tail may be slightly tall on the Tamiya, but it's not the sort of thing you need to worry about unless it's the sort of thing you find you need to worry about!

 

As for cameras, you'd have to open areas up in order to see anything, which it sounds like you're desperately trying to come up with a reason to do.  There are some cameras in the "recent" [sic] Revell Mosquito, not to be confused with the ancient Monogram/Revell Mosquito.  There are also some generic cameras in certain Spitfire kits and aftermarket, and probably some other places.  The shapes (at least as represented!) are pretty simple, so you could probably work some up from bits of plastic, too.

 

As Troy suggested, if you're not willing to take the easy path of doing a PR.IV, then you really ought to look at what bits you have/can get readily, and then figure out what variant will tick the most boxes for you.  Or build more than one Mossie!

 

bob

As far as cameras, what i had in mind was to display them outside of the aircraft somehow not neccesarily breaking open any panels. Thinking out of the box now 😉 

[top turret toddler]

6 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

It is an accurate PR.IV straight out of the box.

 

If you want a late PR version then you will be embarking on multiple major conversions including a new bomb bay, wing tanks, engines, canopy, tailplanes. Up to you which you want to do.

Have any idea what size drop tanks the mk IV PR Mossie would have sported or would they usually not have any ?

Edited April 19, 2020 by top turret toddler

[Work In Progress]

No external tanks

2 hours ago, top turret toddler said:

Did the mk IV have the top blister on the canopy?

No

Edited April 19, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Work In Progress]

2 hours ago, top turret toddler said:

Also, would a parked Mossie sport lowered flaps/horizontal stabs? What about the rudder, any deflection the norm and would the tail wheel point in the same direction as the rudder when sitting on the ground? 

Flaps up, all controls locked neutral. Tailwheel is free-castoring so can be in any position, and therefore is usually straight after shut-down providing no-one has pushed the tail round manually.

[top turret toddler]

Just now, Work In Progress said:

Flaps up, all controls locked neutral. Tailwheel is free-castoring so can be in any position, and therefore is usually straight after shut-down providing no-one has pushed the tail round manually.

Thanks  

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, top turret toddler said:

If i was to administer any chipping effects, how would i go about this, the Mosquito being made of wood not metal? Was there some type of primer that would show through underneath the PRU blue?

I have no memory of a mosquito looking chipped.  Actually,  as a general rule WW2 aircraft paint was good quality.   There are exceptions, (some later war Japan,  some Hurricane early-mid 1940, ) And don't forget, many aircraft just did not last long, and those that did were internsively used, and as such would get a regular overhaul.

 

It's easy to become conditioned by modelling trends,  which creates a negative feedback loop of people making models that look like other models....

 

Sure it makes for a more dramatic model, but study period photos, carefully.   we are fortunate to have access to more images than ever before. 

there is a collection here of WW2 era colour, these are just the Mosquitoes

https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=mosquito&user_id=8270787%40N07&view_all=1

 

If you want more b#visual interest,  make one after a mission, Merlins leaked a lot of oil, and there would be exhaust staining.    

some very small chips round engine fasterners, some fading and staining on an older airframe.  Look at the image below,  reprouducing the cowlings would create some visual interest.  The trick to good weathering is you don't notice it immediately.

 

Mosquito PR Mk. XVI's,  1944. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

 But aircraft don't work well if dirty and badly maintained, Mosquitoes were in high demand, and PR aircraft depended on speed for survival, so they were well cared for.

 

Unless you are making a very specific aircraft (eg one a relative flew ) it maybe easier to find a well documented airframe, and do that.

 

Finally as you are in Norway

"No. 333 (Norwegian) Sqn. operated out of RAF Banff from Sept. 1944 from where they conducted sorties against the Norwegian coast."  note the spinners in Norwegian colours

Mosquito FB Mk.VI, May 1945. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

HTH

 

 

[top turret toddler]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

I have no memory of a mosquito looking chipped.  Actually,  as a general rule WW2 aircraft paint was good quality.   There are exceptions, (some later war Japan,  some Hurricane early-mid 1940, ) And don't forget, many aircraft just did not last long, and those that did were internsively used, and as such would get a regular overhaul.

 

It's easy to become conditioned by modelling trends,  which creates a negative feedback loop of people making models that look like other models....

 

Sure it makes for a more dramatic model, but study period photos, carefully.   we are fortunate to have access to more images than ever before. 

there is a collection here of WW2 era colour, these are just the Mosquitoes

https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=mosquito&user_id=8270787%40N07&view_all=1

 

If you want more b#visual interest,  make one after a mission, Merlins leaked a lot of oil, and there would be exhaust staining.    

some very small chips round engine fasterners, some fading and staining on an older airframe.  Look at the image below,  reprouducing the cowlings would create some visual interest.  The trick to good weathering is you don't notice it immediately.

 

Mosquito PR Mk. XVI's,  1944. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

 But aircraft don't work well if dirty and badly maintained, Mosquitoes were in high demand, and PR aircraft depended on speed for survival, so they were well cared for.

 

Unless you are making a very specific aircraft (eg one a relative flew ) it maybe easier to find a well documented airframe, and do that.

 

Finally as you are in Norway

"No. 333 (Norwegian) Sqn. operated out of RAF Banff from Sept. 1944 from where they conducted sorties against the Norwegian coast."  note the spinners in Norwegian colours

Mosquito FB Mk.VI, May 1945. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

HTH

 

 

 

Thanks for that. Still many unanswered questions but i think i have a starting point now. I grabbed several of those Aviaeology 333 squadron decals long ago in both scales 😉 Maybe not my favourite type but the norwegian theme i can`t deny has an interest. I don`t know how careful Tamiya is with historical accuracy of their kits so i ask here to make damn sure. This wonderful build has the flaps down. A touch of artistic license perhaps? I like what this chap did with the insides of the camera windows.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235044862-148-mosquito-priv-tamiya/

 

[Troy Smith]

4 minutes ago, top turret toddler said:

A touch of artistic license perhaps?

yes.  It seems standard British shutdown included raising the flaps.  This come up in models of Spitfire and Hurricanes, forgetting to raise your flaps would lead to a 'fine' of a round of drinks in the mess.

Again, look at photos.  Unless there is a reason why flaps would come down (eg Mustang bleed off of hydraulic pressure)  then they are usually up.   

The chap linked is a superb modeller, but does get small details wrong on occasion,  but the build/research time balance is a tricky one..... I do lots of research...and not much building! 

10 minutes ago, top turret toddler said:

Still many unanswered questions but i think i have a starting point now.

A tip, use google or whatever search engine you prefer to search here by adding 'Birtmodeller' into your search term.   Really worth having a hunt about, and then asking specific questions, and include what you do know.

 

13 minutes ago, top turret toddler said:

I don`t know how careful Tamiya is with historical accuracy of their kits so i ask here to make damn sure.

Not always as god as they could be,  but as they assemble so well,  people don't seem to care.   

the Tamiya kit has some issues,  depends on how bad your AMS is....  There is a Japanese modeller , Jumei Temma IIRC, who does all sorts of tweaks to his work.  he did a Mosquito build.

 

FWIW, some folks say the best 1/48 Mosquito shape wise the the 1980 Airfix.  Shame when the added parts to the basic FB VI kit  to do a B/PR XVI and NF XXX,  they were rather crude additions, as they'd have been great otherwise.

 

The 1/48th Revell kit has some errors, but easy enough to fix,and a lot of internal detail.

 

One point, NO 1/48th Mosquito kit gets the tyres tread right, the only AM that does is Ultracast.

[Work In Progress]

5 hours ago, top turret toddler said:

A touch of artistic license perhaps

Loads of artistic licence. You don't walk away from a parked Mosquito with the door open, the flaps down and the control locks disengaged.

But there is no law saying a model needs to be an accurate representation of a moment in history, there are many other reasons that people find to build models. So long as you don't kid yourself that you're doing something historically faithful when you're actually just doing what you feel like doing. I'm building an entirely ficitious major conversion of something at the moment purely to find out what it would have looked like if done in real life.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

On a number of British aircraft of this vintage, flaps would be raised when parking up for a number of reasons but one was for pre-flight checking the hydraulics next flight.

 

When starting the next time, the manual hydraulic hand pump would be tested and proved by jacking the flaps down before engine start. The selector would be set to UP then an engine started. On Mosquitoes the pilots' notes state to start the engines in the opposite order each time for this. When the engine starts its hydraulic pump will raise the flaps again, thus proving that the engine hydraulic pump works.

 

Using the flaps for this involves a reasonable stroke of the hydraulics with a very visual indicator. One could use the undercarriage to prove the hydraulics, but if the hydraulics aren't broken the flight will be shorter than hoped. 😄

[Work In Progress]

More prosaically, leaving the aeroplane flaps-up also reduces the opportunities for minor damage to occur, and foreign objects to find their way into crevices and nooks

[top turret toddler]

7 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

yes.  It seems standard British shutdown included raising the flaps.  This come up in models of Spitfire and Hurricanes, forgetting to raise your flaps would lead to a 'fine' of a round of drinks in the mess.

Again, look at photos.  Unless there is a reason why flaps would come down (eg Mustang bleed off of hydraulic pressure)  then they are usually up.   

The chap linked is a superb modeller, but does get small details wrong on occasion,  but the build/research time balance is a tricky one..... I do lots of research...and not much building! 

A tip, use google or whatever search engine you prefer to search here by adding 'Birtmodeller' into your search term.   Really worth having a hunt about, and then asking specific questions, and include what you do know.

 

Not always as god as they could be,  but as they assemble so well,  people don't seem to care.   

the Tamiya kit has some issues,  depends on how bad your AMS is....  There is a Japanese modeller , Jumei Temma IIRC, who does all sorts of tweaks to his work.  he did a Mosquito build.

 

FWIW, some folks say the best 1/48 Mosquito shape wise the the 1980 Airfix.  Shame when the added parts to the basic FB VI kit  to do a B/PR XVI and NF XXX,  they were rather crude additions, as they'd have been great otherwise.

 

The 1/48th Revell kit has some errors, but easy enough to fix,and a lot of internal detail.

 

One point, NO 1/48th Mosquito kit gets the tyres tread right, the only AM that does is Ultracast.

I hear you on the research bit. I have several AM Mossie exhausts, QB, Moskit, Ultracast and i couldn`t help notice that Ultracast incorporates the highest level of detail. The QB one is the most simplified of the lot but better than the kit part. Also got Ultracast flame dampers to cover up those nice UC exhausts! mud guards and a set of wheels too   Got these bits from Tigerhobbies in Winnipeg years ago. What on earth could Neil have been thinking when he made those Paragon flap sets back when?! I tried looking for Jumpei Temma and his DH 98 build but came up emptyhanded. Do you have a link? If ever i was to build an old Airfix mossie it would have to be for sentimental reasons. My money is with Tamiya, no competition there. I have the nice Taurus canopy to top it off but i have to admit would be nice with some more AM bits for the cameras.  

 

 

 

[Harvs73]

I made a RAAF PR16 out of the Tamiya kit but it needed a fair bit of work done on it to get it to the stage I was happy. I used the CMK conversion for the PR16 and some other bits and pieces, the bulged canopy was the problem child to install but now there are other AM canopies that you can use.

 

PS. Yes, I did it with flaps down.

http://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/pages/Reviews/Conversions/Harvey_PR16 conversion.html

 

[Crimea River]

8 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

Loads of artistic licence. You don't walk away from a parked Mosquito with the door open, the flaps down and the control locks disengaged.

I have plenty of pics of parked Mosquitoes with the elevators deflected downwards and many with crew doors open. It was not artistic license when I chose to pose mine that way on my FB VI "Hairless Joe" and the below picture features both. Actually, you can see deflected ailerons too.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Crimea River

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

It's worth looking at Ultracast's Mosquito Control Surface set, if only because the rudder is corrected. You'll need to trim the fin down a bit too but it's worth it. If you know Mosquitos then the Tamiya tail shines like a big red beacon of wrongness. It's one of those things however that looks ok until you see it fixed then you can never unsee it.

 

Just trimming the top off the rudder doesn't really work because the rib spacing is wrong. The kit part is too tall along its length, not just at the top.

[Work In Progress]

2 hours ago, Crimea River said:

I have plenty of pics of parked Mosquitoes with the elevators deflected downwards and many with crew doors open. It was not artistic license when I chose to pose mine that way on my FB VI "Hairless Joe" and the below picture features both. Actually, you can see deflected ailerons too.

 

 

 

 

Yes, but I said "you don't walk away from a Mosquito..." in that state. No-one;s walked away from that aeroplane. The photo is taken by a crewmember who has literally just stepped out of it, or has pre-flighted it and is about to get in - or possibly a ground crewmember who's met them. It's not an unattended aeroplane.  There are crew milling around it. If you're modelling an operational scene like that as a vignette or diorama then that's what you model, but that isn't what we've been discussing up to now

Edited April 20, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

It's worth looking at Ultracast's Mosquito Control Surface set, if only because the rudder is corrected. You'll need to trim the fin down a bit too but it's worth it. If you know Mosquitos then the Tamiya tail shines like a big red beacon of wrongness. It's one of those things however that looks ok until you see it fixed then you can never unsee it.

 

Just trimming the top off the rudder doesn't really work because the rib spacing is wrong. The kit part is too tall along its length, not just at the top.

"free" AM suggestion, the Airfix B/PR XVI kit comes with two entire fuse;ages,  with rudders.   Mine are not too hand,  but as I said above, the kit is highly rated shapewise. 

Undoubtedly the Ultracast part will be superior, but if you don't want to get the Ultracast set..

8 hours ago, top turret toddler said:

I tried looking for Jumpei Temma and his DH 98 build but came up emptyhanded. Do you have a link?

I had a search, the links I found lead to a dead site.  

I don't know if he has moved? be a shame if all that info sent.   Maybe worth seeing if the wayback machine has any archived?

8 hours ago, top turret toddler said:

If ever i was to build an old Airfix mossie it would have to be for sentimental reasons. My money is with Tamiya, no competition there.

Don't get fooled by the 'Tamiya sheen', note they got the fin wrong,  and from what I remember of the Jumpei Temma build, he found some funny shapes on the bomber nose.  

Some Tamiya kits of this era, like the old tool Spitfire I/V, Beaufighter are two good examples, have quite serious shape errors, and they messed up the nose on the original bf109E.  

 

Easy to get seduced by the slickness and ease of assembly of their kits.

 

Sure, the Airfix kit is more basic, and certainly will not fit as well,  I still have the remains of the one I did in 1980, before I understood how to refine a plastic kit, now I would spend time trimming and shimming to get a better fit.

But was done in the last era of original Airfix (they went bankrupt ini 1981) and legend has it was based on research for tooling up a 1/24th version, and was perhaps the best of their original 1/48th range. 

I know I was surprised at the basicness Tamiya radio set front compared to the Airfix one.  

 

I do understand that spending time getting a kit to fit together compared to one that almost clicks together is a drag,  but personally I'll take basic accuracy over ease of construction. 

Of course your model, your choice. 

 

HTH

 

 

 

[elger]

13 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

I had a search, the links I found lead to a dead site.  

I don't know if he has moved? be a shame if all that info sent.   Maybe worth seeing if the wayback machine has any archived?

Don't get fooled by the 'Tamiya sheen', note they got the fin wrong,  and from what I remember of the Jumpei Temma build, he found some funny shapes on the bomber nose. 

 

Sure, the Airfix kit is more basic, and certainly will not fit as well,  I still have the remains of the one I did in 1980, before I understood how to refine a plastic kit, now I would spend time trimming and shimming to get a better fit.

But was done in the last era of original Airfix (they went bankrupt ini 1981) and legend has it was based on research for tooling up a 1/24th version, and was perhaps the best of their original 1/48th range. 

I know I was surprised at the basicness Tamiya radio set front compared to the Airfix one.  

 

I do understand that spending time getting a kit to fit together compared to one that almost clicks together is a drag,  but personally I'll take basic accuracy over ease of construction. 

Of course your model, your choice. 

 

HTH

 

 

 

 

Here's Jumpei Temma's new site: http://soyuyo.main.jp/index.html

 

And by the way with a bit of work you can make Tamiya's wings fit the Airfix fuselage:

 

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

@Troy Smith that's a good shout regarding the old Airfix kit actually. That kit is/was superior to Tamiya in terms of shape accuracy. I have one of each within reach and the Airfix tail is correct and the overall profile therefore just looks correct.