Robert Stuart Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 Hello I plan to make a model of an Algerine minesweeper, as it would have been, very late war or early post war - possibly from the 12th Minesweeping Flotilla. There is a scheme that appeals to me... HMS MUTINE. © IWM (A 15851) (Click photo for a larger image) I think this is HMS Mutine. HMS Circe and HMS Espiegle carried similar designs. Question Would the ships still have been painted like this in 1945? What colours were they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 I'd probably go with B30, G45 and B55 for that. You'll get an appreciation for these designs and how they "feel" in C.B.3098(R) THE CAMOUFLAGE OF SHIPS AT SEA published in May 1943. Plate 123 is a similar sort of design shown for an Algerine class, albeit including G10 for small areas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Stuart Posted April 15, 2020 Author Share Posted April 15, 2020 Thank Jamie. That is helpful. The surrounding plates answered a supplementary question I had about paravane colours (think I see B.55 for these). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 Are you building Starling Models' Algerine? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Stuart Posted April 15, 2020 Author Share Posted April 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: Are you building Starling Models' Algerine? That is the hope Jamie, the 1/700 version. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 A very good friend of mine served in Algerines in the 1950s and for a long time was the President of the Algerine Association. He's been a little poorly of late so I obviously cannot promise anything but if it would help I can ask him of he has any photos of Algerines he would be willing to share? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick b Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 23 hours ago, Robert Stuart said: Hello I plan to make a model of an Algerine minesweeper, as it would have been, very late war or early post war - possibly from the 12th Minesweeping Flotilla. There is a scheme that appeals to me... HMS MUTINE. © IWM (A 15851) (Click photo for a larger image) I think this is HMS Mutine. HMS Circe and HMS Espiegle carried similar designs. Question Would the ships still have been painted like this in 1945? What colours were they? I have a copy of The Algerines by Jack Williams and a photo in it shows Mutine sweeping off Italy in 1944 and the hull is a dark tone with a lighter superstructure and a pale pennant number J227 on the hull. The pattern shown in your image seems to be relevant for being in the Med in 42. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Stuart Posted April 16, 2020 Author Share Posted April 16, 2020 4 hours ago, Chewbacca said: A very good friend of mine served in Algerines in the 1950s and for a long time was the President of the Algerine Association. He's been a little poorly of late so I obviously cannot promise anything but if it would help I can ask him of he has any photos of Algerines he would be willing to share? That would be bery helpful Chewbacca. Anything he can share would be gratefully received. 1 hour ago, mick b said: I have a copy of The Algerines by Jack Williams and a photo in it shows Mutine sweeping off Italy in 1944 and the hull is a dark tone with a lighter superstructure and a pale pennant number J227 on the hull. The pattern shown in your image seems to be relevant for being in the Med in 42. Thanks Mike, That colour change would make sense - much easier to maintain. Is the scheme anything like this (HMS Cadmus)? Photo from Wikimedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Our Ned Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Although Robert has said he plans to make a model of Mutine later in the war, beware that the photo he originally posted is reversed (and censored to remove the pendant number). The IWM has this photo (reference A15851) as well as the correct uncensored version (Reference FL 16588). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick b Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Robert Stuart said: That would be bery helpful Chewbacca. Anything he can share would be gratefully received. Thanks Mike, That colour change would make sense - much easier to maintain. Is the scheme anything like this (HMS Cadmus)? Photo from Wikimedia Hi Robert Yes the same scheme, the photo showing Mutine in that scheme also has Cadmus with it in the same finish, other images show sister ships in the same flotilla still wearing this scheme or something very similar in tone in 1946. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickrd Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 (edited) I think we can say with an unusually high degree of confidence what the colours were on Mutine in 1942 in photo FL 16588. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205121294 The design for this scheme features in Hodges’ Royal Navy Warship Camouflage 1939-45, page 21, noted as taken from a design dated August 12, 1942. This would be one of the long-lost Leamington design sheets. The colours are given as B5, MS4 and MS4A (which are of course correct in-use colours at that date). Then there exist in the Admiralty Library archive at Portsmouth various actual paint sample cards. Amongst them is a set of three annotated on the rear “Mutine”. The colours of these are B5, MS4 and MS4A. In this case I don’t think the evidence for the colour palette could be any stronger! I think it's an MS4 hull, MS4A upperworks with stripes of B5 and a B5 funnel. Edited April 16, 2020 by dickrd 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 33 minutes ago, dickrd said: I think we can say with an unusually high degree of confidence what the colours were on Mutine in 1942 in photo FL 16588. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205121294 The design for this scheme features in Hodges’ Royal Navy Warship Camouflage 1939-45, page 21, noted as taken from a design dated August 12, 1942. This would be one of the long-lost Leamington design sheets. The colours are given as B5, MS4 and MS4A (which are of course correct in-use colours at that date). Then there exist in the Admiralty Library archive at Portsmouth various actual paint sample cards. Amongst them is a set of three annotated on the rear “Mutine”. The colours of these are B5, MS4 and MS4A. In this case I don’t think the evidence for the colour palette could be any stronger! I think it's an MS4 hull, MS4A upperworks with stripes of B5 and a B5 funnel. Now you mention it Richard, I have of course not only seen and handled those paint samples but measured and recorded their colour coordinates too! There was a 507A sample also, which I suppose may have either been on the deck or from prior to the camouflage scheme being applied. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Stuart Posted April 16, 2020 Author Share Posted April 16, 2020 Thanks Mike, dickrd and Jamie. For this build (late war/early post war), I think we have the design, I still need to decide on colours. Would B30, G45 and B55 still suit as Jamie suggested earlier? Looking at the Cadmus photo, is B30 too dark? What do you think guys? If my build works, I may revisit with the 1942 scheme (I find those lines of tone wriggling across the ship are visually interesting). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Based on that, I think she looks like this: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickrd Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 (edited) Jamie, Yes, the 507A was for the deck according to the design in Hodges' book. Please note though that your drawing above is based on photo A 15858 which is a censored and reversed image. This is actually the starboard side pattern as you can see if you click on the link I gave above. The portside pattern was different. If you don't have Hodge's book let me know and I'll e-mail you the page so you can draw that too! Best wishes, Richard Edited April 16, 2020 by dickrd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 55 minutes ago, dickrd said: Jamie, Yes, the 507A was for the deck according to the design in Hodges' book. Please note though that your drawing above is based in photo A 15858 which is a censored and reversed image. This is actually the starboard side pattern as you can see if you click on the link I gave above. The portside pattern was different. If you don't have Hodge's book let me know and I'll e-mail you the page so you can draw that too! Best wishes, Richard Hi Richard, I shall flip it. I have Hodges somewhere, although I can't find it right now. I don't *think* I lost it in the fire. I'll have a more thorough search in the morning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 17 hours ago, Robert Stuart said: That would be bery helpful Chewbacca. Anything he can share would be gratefully received. Email sent. I'll let you know if/when he comes back with anything 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Stuart Posted April 17, 2020 Author Share Posted April 17, 2020 Thank-you Chewbacca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickrd Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 (edited) I am having a rethink about the scheme on Mutine. On closer inspection the photo (FL 16588) does not after all tally exactly with the design sheet illustration in Hodges' book. Also the design sheet in Hodges is given as dated 12th August 1942, But Mutine was of course not completed until late February 1943 which gives plenty of time for a reworked design to have been issued. I will discuss with Jamie to see if he wishes to illustrate some options. Nothing is simple with RN WW2 camouflage! Edited April 18, 2020 by dickrd 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwenS Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 Of the 12 MSF ships in 1945 I have dated photos of Cadmus (Dec 1945) and Albacore (Nov 1945) taken at Malta. Both are painted with a dark hull and light grey upperworks. I also have an undated one of Mutine again at Malta in the same camouflage which I feel was taken around the same time again in the same scheme. Cadmus appears to have a lighter hull than the other two, but I would hate to speculate as to what the exact colours were from the photos. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 3 hours ago, dickrd said: I will discuss with Jamie to see if he wishes to illustrate some options. Nothing is simple with RN WW2 camouflage! Let's have at it... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Stuart Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share Posted April 18, 2020 3 hours ago, dickrd said: Nothing is simple with RN WW2 camouflage! Thanks @dickrd, I'm beginning to learn. I'd be interested to see what Jamie comes up with for the 1942/43 scheme, but - for this build, I'll go with the simplet 1945 scheme. As I mentioned before, HMS Circe and HMS Espiegle carried similar designs at some time during their careers. @EwenS, thank-you. From your photos, could I get away with G45 and B55? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 Not impossible, but G45 versus B55 would have less contrast than seen between hull and upperworks on your first photo in post #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 I hope this isn't a complete irrelevance, but is that allowing for blue colours to appear lighter on some films/filters? This is something that causes problems with b&w photos of FAA aircraft in Extra Dark Sea Grey - and RAF fighters in Ocean Grey too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 5 hours ago, Graham Boak said: I hope this isn't a complete irrelevance, but is that allowing for blue colours to appear lighter on some films/filters? This is something that causes problems with b&w photos of FAA aircraft in Extra Dark Sea Grey - and RAF fighters in Ocean Grey too. Hi Graham, Was that for me with respect to the contrast remark? If not, no need to worry... If so, then it's usually B5 that seems to appear appreciably lighter. G45 is of course a bit blue, but MS4 and MS4A are not but they are 30% RF and ~52% RF respectively and as noted these fairly neutral/slightly green leaning greys show little contrast in that particular part of the light reflectance value range. G45 is as implied by the name 45% RF and B55 likewise 55% RF, so the perceptibly difference in tone is pretty subtle. In CB3098 1945 edition standard Schemes C and D are shown as two tone schemes featuring light hull and very light upperworks. Scheme C is essentially a simplified Western Approaches scheme using white and B55 but without any disruptive shapes - it looks like the familiar Scheme A design comprising a light overall colour with a darker panel on the hull; in this case white with a B55 panel. Scheme D is more reminiscent of the CAFO1112/42 emergency schemes featuring a darker colour up to maindeck level and a lighter colour from there up to forecastle deck level and everything above that. The Scheme D paints were G45 for the darker portion with B55 above. There wouldn't be much to tell between those in B&W though, although it could be made out in well lit, well exposed and otherwise good quality images. It would not strike me as a candidate if the layman's description was "dark hull, light upperworks". As you know, the darkest paint, G45 was 507C and few would ever describe that as dark grey... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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